Higher Fuel Prices And Overlanding

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4x4tripping said:
It isnt simple geography, it is just the tax who defines the price most at the end. At least I did guess that. In Switzerland are 57% tax on the fuel,,,

The world market is global, so the "clean" prices are nearby in most countrys.

If you are able to visit Angola, you will see that price per gallon: 0.758$

tripping
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Comparing fuel prices in Europe VS N. America is like comparing apple prices in Antarctica VS Poland.

Absolutely tax plays a significant role as you can see in the illustrations above which is a function of the unspeakable P word. BUT, transport costs from origin to refining to end user is also a component of that cost. USA is a (well was, we'll see going forward) net exporter of oil and finished products. That is why I'm asking what percentage of finished, refined product is imported.
 
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bgenlvtex said:
Comparing fuel prices in Europe VS N. America is like comparing apple prices in Antarctica VS Poland.
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And yet it's still a valid point even if you don't agree. This forum nor this thread is limited to people in the US or North America, there are people outside North American posting. There are folks that say we shouldn't be complaining because our fuel is so much cheaper than theirs. So to say someone else's costs aren't valid comparisons to yours is rather selfish/short-sighted. Sure, there are places that have fuel cheaper than the US but there are many places where it's more. And people in those places have no choice but to pay the prices TODAY that we're speculating about happening here in the US down the road.

I've never been to or driven in Europe, but I can see a 6,000+KM loop that starts in Switzerland and, on a map, looks like it would be AMAZING. One could say the distance between your two places is irrelevant, because nobody else owns two pieces of property that far apart.

If you're wanting to ignore costs other than your own then you have to find a way to adjust the price of fuel should the US be in a bubble and not import or export any fuel since that affects cost, for us and for others.

The original post didn't say only people in the US/North America could answer, either. We're all in this together whether you like it or not. :)
 
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DRAX said:
And yet it's still a valid point even if you don't agree. This forum nor this thread is limited to people in the US or North America, there are people outside North American posting. There are folks that say we shouldn't be complaining because our fuel is so much cheaper than theirs. So to say someone else's costs aren't valid comparisons to yours is rather selfish/short-sighted. Sure, there are places that have fuel cheaper than the US but there are many places where it's more. And people in those places have no choice but to pay the prices TODAY that we're speculating about happening here in the US down the road.

I've never been to or driven in Europe, but I can see a 6,000+KM loop that starts in Switzerland and, on a map, looks like it would be AMAZING. One could say the distance between your two places is irrelevant, because nobody else owns two pieces of property that far apart.

If you're wanting to ignore costs other than your own then you have to find a way to adjust the price of fuel should the US be in a bubble and not import or export any fuel since that affects cost, for us and for others.

The original post didn't say only people in the US/North America could answer, either. We're all in this together whether you like it or not. :)
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You should go take a long hard look and maybe read the OP.

Is fuel costs in Europe a valid point? Sure it is, however it is totally impertinent to the OP.

People in Europe have been getting screwed in fuel prices for so long that they have learned to like it, and then promoting the notion that we shouldn't complain because they have learned to like it is borderline dystopian. Stockholm Syndrome is a real thing.
 
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Your gas prices have been going up an average of 10 cents a week per gallon. Biden has said in the past he would like to see gas prices over $5 a gallon. At this rate, it could be there by the end of summer.
 
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bgenlvtex said:
I'm still fascinated with people thinking that European fuel costs are a valid reference point to North American fuel costs.

The shortest path between my two addresses is slightly over 4,000 miles/6500 kilometers. If you drove 6500 kilometers from your current location in any one general direction where would you be? I'm pretty sure the only direction you could drive 6500k would put you in the middle of Russia.

I'm not picking on you and I understand that you are simply offering a reference point, but simple geography excludes any reasonable comparison.
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I suggest that it is a reasonable comparison if we base it on annual travel distance rather than on a theoretical single trip distance possible. People who drive all year within a couple of hundred miles of their homes don't care whether they can drive 4000 miles/6500 Km without leaving the USA/Europe; they care about their annual fuel cost, whether in California or France. The population of Europe is about double that of the USA, so if anything Europe's situation is more relevant to overlanders in general (the thread is "Higher Fuel Prices And Overlanding" and not "Higher Fuel Prices And Overlanding in the USA").

It's true that fuel prices in Europe are of limited interest, and no direct financial impact, to drivers in the USA, however I think that the posts compring prices in different parts of the world stem from a sense on the part of drivers in countries where fuel prices are high that complaints about high prices from drivers living in places where in a global sense fuel prices are much lower are unwarranted. I guess we all view the world from our own perspective.

I guess the question then would be whether overlanders in Europe travel less than those in the USA - and I suspect that the answer would be that it varies but that there's not that much difference. Many people cover shorter distances, whether wandering around California or France, and others greater distance, such as Deadhorse to Baja (CA) or Nordkapp to Lisbon. I suspect also that more overlanders in Europe travel to Africa and Asia than overlanders in the USA travel to South America (or Africa or Asia).

Also intended to be a constructive contribution.
 
bgenlvtex said:
You should go take a long hard look and maybe read the OP.

Is fuel costs in Europe a valid point? Sure it is, however it is totally impertinent to the OP.

People in Europe have been getting screwed in fuel prices for so long that they have learned to like it, and then promoting the notion that we shouldn't complain because they have learned to like it is borderline dystopian. Stockholm Syndrome is a real thing.
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I did look at the OP before posting my reply, absolutely nothing says that only people in the US or North America can comment or provide their opinions or experiences. You're trying to limit the audience when the OP never made any such request and then telling people not in the US that their experiences or opinions don't matter or apply to this thread. The US isn't the center of the universe.
 
DRAX said:
I did look at the OP before posting my reply, absolutely nothing says that only people in the US or North America can comment or provide their opinions or experiences. You're trying to limit the audience when the OP never made any such request and then telling people not in the US that their experiences or opinions don't matter or apply to this thread. The US isn't the center of the universe.
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Rather than argue with you, I'll utilize one of the better features of this forum.
 
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Alanymarce said:
I suggest that it is a reasonable comparison if we base it on annual travel distance rather than on a theoretical single trip distance possible. People who drive all year within a couple of hundred miles of their homes don't care whether they can drive 4000 miles/6500 Km without leaving the USA/Europe; they care about their annual fuel cost, whether in California or France. The population of Europe is about double that of the USA, so if anything Europe's situation is more relevant to overlanders in general (the thread is "Higher Fuel Prices And Overlanding" and not "Higher Fuel Prices And Overlanding in the USA").

It's true that fuel prices in Europe are of limited interest, and no direct financial impact, to drivers in the USA, however I think that the posts compring prices in different parts of the world stem from a sense on the part of drivers in countries where fuel prices are high that complaints about high prices from drivers living in places where in a global sense fuel prices are much lower are unwarranted. I guess we all view the world from our own perspective.

I guess the question then would be whether overlanders in Europe travel less than those in the USA - and I suspect that the answer would be that it varies but that there's not that much difference. Many people cover shorter distances, whether wandering around California or France, and others greater distance, such as Deadhorse to Baja (CA) or Nordkapp to Lisbon. I suspect also that more overlanders in Europe travel to Africa and Asia than overlanders in the USA travel to South America (or Africa or Asia).

Also intended to be a constructive contribution.
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You are correct that cumulative miles is cumulative miles regardless of the direction taken. The scale of travel within any one land mass is going to either encourage or limit to varying degrees how much fuel is consumed. That is my purpose in pointing out the distance between two points.

What I take exception too is people promoting the notion that since they have been getting sodomized by their government and have become routinely accustomed to it, that we in the USA should not feel slighted when we are subjected to the same thing. THAT complacency and ambivalence is exactly how you find yourself paying $6 a gallon a product that is worth less than two.

Had the response been, "Man I wish ours was only $4 a gallon" I would simply nod and move on. However when the response is effectively (paraphrased) "quit whining and don't be complaining about a 60% tax rate" I'm going to take exception. At least for the time being I'm still a citizen not a subject and plan on staying that way.

Fuel is a consumable, Of course it is a concern for everyone regardless of locale. The picture and dialog presented in the OP is commentary on the unsayable P word landscape that has already in a very brief time frame increased our fuel costs almost 30% , sabers are being rattled that will drive them even higher, and an administration that campaigned of further restricting the industry which will drive them even higher yet. Those conditions are most directly impactful on US drivers.
 
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Actually where I live it is 4 USD per gallon, however in the north of the country it's half that; when we're travelling in Europe it's way more, and in our neighbouring country it's 8 cents a gallon.

More to the point, I wish that we had viable EV charging capability (on vehicle and off) so that we weren't using combustibles at all.

I do appreciate that for drivers in the USA the relatively rapid increase in prices to something approaching global prices is painful and I don't wish to marginalise this pain. I guess it's of no solace to reflect that the grass was greener when you no long have any grass.
 
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egilbe said:
I started my work life working for farmers. $.50 an hour picking rocks and sticks out of new pastureland. in the '70's. Started in retail making $1.40 an hour, I think that was minimum wage back then, 1980 or so. I know it wasn;t very much to put up with cranky shoppers. After I got out of the army, I worked construction as a laborer for awhile making $6.00 an hour in 1988. My first mfg job in 1988 started at $6.50 an hour and after 9 months went to $11.00 an hour. I was rolling in the money. I was spending $250 a week in the bars, at least. After I quit drinking, I had saved up enough money to buy a house, which I promptly gave to the ex-wife in a divorce.

after WW2, the CEO of a company made 30 times the salary of the lowest paid employee working for him. Now, a CEO makes 400 to 1000 times more than the lowest paid employee. I never realized that someone who could make a decision once in a while was that much more valuable than the grunt doing all the work making widgets.

Even earning a degree sinks a young person into so much financial debt, that they spend the first 20 years of their adult life trying to pay off student loans. The game is rigged, and the only way to win, is to not play the game. At some point, in every society throughout history, the poor have risen up and destroyed the ruling class. Everyone starts off at the bottom again. The poor have nothing to lose. the wealthy and powerful, everything. The capital "riots" are a symptom. Congress and the ruling class really need to look hard at why a group of people felt it was necessary to attack members of our government.
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Well, those who stormed the capital were not poor or disadvantaged members of our society. They were middle class income and up wack jobs that fell prey to nearly 40 years of anti government propaganda telling them that government is bad. The poor and the disadvantaged were protesting over the summer.
 
Alanymarce said:
Actually where I live it is 4 USD per gallon, however in the north of the country it's half that; when we're travelling in Europe it's way more, and in our neighbouring country it's 8 cents a gallon.

More to the point, I wish that we had viable EV charging capability (on vehicle and off) so that we weren't using combustibles at all.

I do appreciate that for drivers in the USA the relatively rapid increase in prices to something approaching global prices is painful and I don't wish to marginalise this pain. I guess it's of no solace to reflect that the grass was greener when you no long have any grass.
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I had no issues with $4.25 fuel in Columbia, Mexico, or whatever I paid in the Dominican Republic (pump made no sense at all).

But in the US, we're traveling much longer distances with a heavier load out, and expect bulk/wholesale pricing. I'll burn more fuel on a trip to MI than a cruise ship.
 
Americans have very short memories. Gas, real estate, stocks, recessions, etc.
I see a lot of buyer's remorse with the big SUV's and trucks. People already looking at alternatives and cheaper little used economy cars.

It sure didn't take long.
Driving what I drive (for work and personal) comes with a trade off. And right now the odds and the $$$ aren't on my side. It's the way it goes for a while. Dig deeper into those pockets. It was good while it lasted.
Maybe things will cheapen up and we'll see a little relief as the markets and demand dictate.
 
Even sadder is they'll take a depreciation hit that's double the cost of the fuel savings of the new vehicle.

I laugh when someone switches vehicles ''to save money''.
 
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If you talk about overlading only fuel issues, I think people adapt and will adapt. In Europe you mitigate the high fuel prices with smaller engines in general and many diesel engines. But now even in Europe diesel is going away, the only segment where it still use is in pick ups and large SUV. Actually 99 % of large off SUV and pick ups any good offroad. are diesel only, the only exception is the Wrangler and G wagons, who are really really expensive. And that is a problem.
The nice thing in the US is that if fuel is really becoming a issue you already have alternatives available, most pick ups and large SUV come either with an "eco" 4 popper turbo or you can keep your nice sounding V8 if you can afford it.


In Europe, unlike US there are also annual road road taxes, so even if you afford the fuel, the road tax on top of the fuel cost makes then unfordable for 90 % of people.
A couple of decades ago diesel was the go to vehicle for international travel, being it in South America, Asia or Africa.
Now with the modern diesel, is still possible, but a lot more difficult due to the big difference in diesel Sulphur content across continents.The emission controls also makes diesel fuel economy suffer, specially on the smaller ones, so basically they are useless. High sulfur is a problem for petrol engines as well, but there is much easier, you just half you oil service interval and you are ok.
Me, as a European I can't wait for petrol alternatives. The new Landcruiser Prado due in 2022 - 2023 it is rumored to finally come with a petrol or petrol /hibrid version in Europe as well, also we might get a petrol Hilux, and even sooner, the Ineos Grenadier, who looks very interesting though a bit of risk since it is completely new company.
Tech is evolving, now you can get a wrangler with the 2.0 turbo petrol. I recently did a drive test with it and on that drive test it only had 10 % higher fuel consumption than my new diesel pick up that has 100 HP less...
Only if the wind noise on the highway would not be so horrible, it reminded me of car from the 70 's , I would have bought it on spot..
 
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