Higher Fuel Prices And Overlanding

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leeloo

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If you talk about overlading only fuel issues, I think people adapt and will adapt. In Europe you mitigate the high fuel prices with smaller engines in general and many diesel engines. But now even in Europe diesel is going away, the only segment where it still use is in pick ups and large SUV. Actually 99 % of large off SUV and pick ups any good offroad. are diesel only, the only exception is the Wrangler and G wagons, who are really really expensive. And that is a problem.
The nice thing in the US is that if fuel is really becoming a issue you already have alternatives available, most pick ups and large SUV come either with an "eco" 4 popper turbo or you can keep your nice sounding V8 if you can afford it.


In Europe, unlike US there are also annual road road taxes, so even if you afford the fuel, the road tax on top of the fuel cost makes then unfordable for 90 % of people.
A couple of decades ago diesel was the go to vehicle for international travel, being it in South America, Asia or Africa.
Now with the modern diesel, is still possible, but a lot more difficult due to the big difference in diesel Sulphur content across continents.The emission controls also makes diesel fuel economy suffer, specially on the smaller ones, so basically they are useless. High sulfur is a problem for petrol engines as well, but there is much easier, you just half you oil service interval and you are ok.
Me, as a European I can't wait for petrol alternatives. The new Landcruiser Prado due in 2022 - 2023 it is rumored to finally come with a petrol or petrol /hibrid version in Europe as well, also we might get a petrol Hilux, and even sooner, the Ineos Grenadier, who looks very interesting though a bit of risk since it is completely new company.
Tech is evolving, now you can get a wrangler with the 2.0 turbo petrol. I recently did a drive test with it and on that drive test it only had 10 % higher fuel consumption than my new diesel pick up that has 100 HP less...
Only if the wind noise on the highway would not be so horrible, it reminded me of car from the 70 's , I would have bought it on spot..
 

leeloo

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So, I'm guessing you don't have a lot of Hemi's over there?
Nope. The fuel cost is only a part of the problem. There are other issues as well. To give you an idea, when I was living in Belgium, on 3.0l Diesel engine I was paying about 900 euro -1021 USD /year in road tax only. If you think that is lot, on a 5.0 L V8 I would pay around 6000 euro per year. This was the cost if did not drive it at all..


In Belgium there was an exception. Pick-ups are considered commercial vehicles and no matter the engine you had a flat tax of 140 euro /year, really cheap. So on a V6 Tacoma or V8 Dodge RAM you would pay this flat tax as well, of 140 euro/year , and there were some people who had them. Basically in 6 years I lived there those were the only V8 I saw in significant numbers. Imported RAM pickups with the HEMI V8. I had a neighbor who had one.
Germany is still ok ish from the annual tax point of view, Luxembourg where I live now is basically a tax heaven, but in most countries, with very few exceptions, anything bigger than 2L becomes expensive ( the annual road tax), more than 3L it is like "wtf are they insane level"
This is why I can't wait for some pick-us or large SUV to show up on the market with some petrol or even petrol hybrid engines, small turbo's for lower tax. Like this I can drive them with no worries outside EU, in Africa and Asia, where the fuel has a higher sulfur content...
Otherwise, if I stay only inside EU, with my small diesel pick -up I do fine. Adblue (DEF in US ) , you find it everywhere, fuel quality is not an issue.
But I have plans to go to Africa, and also in Asia to do the "Stans" so a petrol vehicle for me would be the no.1 Choice. But now, except the wrangler, in Europe there is nothing.

The other choice with be a 15 year old vehicle, but I had them, and on long trips they break down too often. And I don't have that kind of time to spend god knows where waiting for weeks to have the parts shipped etc..
 

Boostpowered

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If you talk about overlading only fuel issues, I think people adapt and will adapt. In Europe you mitigate the high fuel prices with smaller engines in general and many diesel engines. But now even in Europe diesel is going away, the only segment where it still use is in pick ups and large SUV. Actually 99 % of large off SUV and pick ups any good offroad. are diesel only, the only exception is the Wrangler and G wagons, who are really really expensive. And that is a problem.
The nice thing in the US is that if fuel is really becoming a issue you already have alternatives available, most pick ups and large SUV come either with an "eco" 4 popper turbo or you can keep your nice sounding V8 if you can afford it.


In Europe, unlike US there are also annual road road taxes, so even if you afford the fuel, the road tax on top of the fuel cost makes then unfordable for 90 % of people.
A couple of decades ago diesel was the go to vehicle for international travel, being it in South America, Asia or Africa.
Now with the modern diesel, is still possible, but a lot more difficult due to the big difference in diesel Sulphur content across continents.The emission controls also makes diesel fuel economy suffer, specially on the smaller ones, so basically they are useless. High sulfur is a problem for petrol engines as well, but there is much easier, you just half you oil service interval and you are ok.
Me, as a European I can't wait for petrol alternatives. The new Landcruiser Prado due in 2022 - 2023 it is rumored to finally come with a petrol or petrol /hibrid version in Europe as well, also we might get a petrol Hilux, and even sooner, the Ineos Grenadier, who looks very interesting though a bit of risk since it is completely new company.
Tech is evolving, now you can get a wrangler with the 2.0 turbo petrol. I recently did a drive test with it and on that drive test it only had 10 % higher fuel consumption than my new diesel pick up that has 100 HP less...
Only if the wind noise on the highway would not be so horrible, it reminded me of car from the 70 's , I would have bought it on spot..
Please elaborate more on how small diesels have bad fuel economy because of emissions ?
My 4 cyl 2.8l turbo diesel gets 500 miles on one 25 gallon tank so your saying If I delete the dpf filter, the Def injection and block off the egr my mileage will go up? That's 804.675 kilometers per 94.653 liters of diesel if you can't convert.
 

leeloo

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Please elaborate more on how small diesels have bad fuel economy because of emissions ?
My 4 cyl 2.8l turbo diesel gets 500 miles on one 25 gallon tank so your saying If I delete the dpf filter, the Def injection and block off the egr my mileage will go up? That's 804.675 kilometers per 94.653 liters of diesel if you can't convert.
For example :
Toyota Hilux, is sold in like 190 countries, and in most the 2.4 Diesel engine is available, including Europe. The difference between 2.4 sold in Europe and Africa, is that the 2.4 in Europe is basically the same engine, but with the emission systems for Euro6 ( DPF + adblue ) added, and of course another software to manage that. The official fuel economy in Europe is 10 % higher than the version for Africa, but in real world is a lot higher. And this is the exact same car, same engine.
I am not sure if you disable on your car you will get the same result.
Before I had my new Hilux 2.4 D4D engine euro 6, I had a LAndcruiser 120 with the 3.0 diesel engine, but it was an old model with Euro 4. I had 27 more HP , same weight, same boxy shape and surprise - same fuel economy . So with 20 years later, I get a weaker engine, it is cleaner, but worse fuel economy... This is called progress... :(

And it makes sense. To lower NOX you need post combustion injection.. that is no help for the fuel economy. To burn off the DPF.. again.. more fuel injected and so on. This difference is more significant for small engines. ... Big diesel 4-5 6 L engines are still a lot more fuel effecient than petrol of similar power, but on new modern small engines now the difference between diesel and petrol is not as much as some people think..
 

Cypress

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The pre emissions Dodge truck my father drives regularly gets 24+ miles to the gallon and that's with a 5.9L I6 turbo-diesel.

The newer emissions trucks are significantly worse. They upped the displacement to get back the hp and torque lost to the emissions equipment. That knocked the fuel economy down into the 15-16 mpg range.
 

Boostpowered

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For example :
Toyota Hilux, is sold in like 190 countries, and in most the 2.4 Diesel engine is available, including Europe. The difference between 2.4 sold in Europe and Africa, is that the 2.4 in Europe is basically the same engine, but with the emission systems for Euro6 ( DPF + adblue ) added, and of course another software to manage that. The official fuel economy in Europe is 10 % higher than the version for Africa, but in real world is a lot higher. And this is the exact same car, same engine.
I am not sure if you disable on your car you will get the same result.
Before I had my new Hilux 2.4 D4D engine euro 6, I had a LAndcruiser 120 with the 3.0 diesel engine, but it was an old model with Euro 4. I had 27 more HP , same weight, same boxy shape and surprise - same fuel economy . So with 20 years later, I get a weaker engine, it is cleaner, but worse fuel economy... This is called progress... :(

And it makes sense. To lower NOX you need post combustion injection.. that is no help for the fuel economy. To burn off the DPF.. again.. more fuel injected and so on. This difference is more significant for small engines. ... Big diesel 4-5 6 L engines are still a lot more fuel effecient than petrol of similar power, but on new modern small engines now the difference between diesel and petrol is not as much as some people think..
You didn't really explain anything. I've done a lot of deletes and straight pipes on diesels over the years and absolutely no one has ever praised it as a way to gain fuel economy, sure you'll gain an extra 25hp but I can do that and way more with the push of a button on my tuner with the egr stuff still intact.

I'm no fan of Def and the fact that if you spill it on grass nothing will grow for 2 years or the fact that Def is polluting the world more than a diesel alone with all the plastic containers that get trashed. But it's here to stay for the foreseeable future so better get used to it.

I think the problem you are trying to address is when a manufacturer takes a 30 year old diesel that was never designed to use Def or a dpf filter puts them on an aging engine design instead of making a new version that is made for it you have issues. So if your taking a engine that was designed before emissions and putting emissions on it = bad, engine deigned for emissions= not as bad but would be better if it didn't have it.

I think the worst part of the dpf is the amount of shit that's left in the oil and recirculated in the fuel which causes the filters to clog which in turn gives you worse mileage and performance. If you don't change these filters and your oil quite often go do that and tell me it didn't make a huge difference, then go change your transmission oil and filter and air up your tires to the recommended pressure on the tires sidewall and see how much difference In mileage you get.

I'm no expert but I don't think the 2gal that gets used per tank for the dpf regen makes that much difference atleast not to me. I loose 4 mpg just switching snorkel heads from the safari style to a donaldson pre cleaner, lost like 5mpg with the lift and larger tires, gained 2mpg back with a tonneau cover. Point being there are alot of things that make a difference in mileage.

We can bitch and complain about it or delete it or learn to live with more frequent filter and fluid changes. It ain't the end of the world yet.
 

4x4tripping

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These DEF / DPF Issue was noticable between 2011 and 2019 for Diesel and international travel.

I did collect severall travelers who got stranded in this time (just in german language, I`m on for translation it)

Since 1-2 years you can see travellers starting again with DEF/DPF and even with Adblue. If Adblue vehicles had less issues, or if the fuel quality did solve the issues - or if they just was lucky ... Corone did kill my investigation about..

I did collect these blogging travellers too, with DEP/DEF and Adblue on theyr journeys. Did cross africa with DEF/DPF and Euro4 Spec at 2012(V8 Diesel)..

Euro5 spec vehicle had those Issues for shure.

tripping
 
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leeloo

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We can bitch and complain about it or delete it or learn to live with more frequent filter and fluid changes. It ain't the end of the world yet.
My bitching is that no such vehicle are available in Europe, not that I cant live with the modern diesel. ( petrol 4x4 capable that can carry 1400 lbs minimum, preferably 2k ) , the one exception is the Wrangler, but a Jeep Wrangler is not a car for everyone.
- to resume - I don't plan to delete anything, another user was asking if he deletes all the emission stuff if he has better fuel consumption. I don't think so. Too many things are connected to each other and the huge amount of software makes it more difficult.
In addition to that, even if you do a software delete, the extra weight of all the systems is still there and it is significant.
- An older diesel with the same power is probably more efficient than a modern one for sure. Dirty, but more economical.
---In internationl travel modern diesel can be problematic. At best case you have the logistical problem of getting the Adblue -DEF, which can be a PITA.

@
4x4tripping

I know a couple who did already about 30 k km in Africa with the exact same car I have, a Euro 6 adblue engine, they say they had no issues so far.

I also did a lot of investigation, I had to because I have no choice here but a diesel and I want to go as well in Africa an Asia ( my plans got derailed by COVID )

So it seem possible , but for sure more complicated. Or like you said, they just got lucky maybe . A petrol engine would be a more sensible and less stressful choice.



If you talk about long distance long term international travel, many countries and lets say minimum 6 months , the cost of fuel is but a part of the math and total cost . You have many other costs, like insurance, shipping, paperwork, taxes, accommodation, food, the fact that you don't have a income for 6 months or more, in this context if you have a vehicle that does 35 mpg or 17 mpg is not a huge difference overall . For sure there is an impact on the cost , but if this makes or breaks the trip, you probably won't afford it or you are too tight and if the smallest thing goes wrong you need to cut short the trip...
On top of it, gas in cheaper in general in most parts than in EU or even US, so it is fine from this point of view.

-in a daily driver that you use also for the occasional trip in the weekend and your 20 -25 days off per year, things are different, fuel economy is more of a factor..
 

Alanymarce

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Actually 99 % of large off SUV and pick ups any good offroad. are diesel only, the only exception is the Wrangler and G wagons, who are really really expensive. And that is a problem.
THere are also Monteros (=Pajero=Shogun). Having owned Land Cruiser, Pajero, Patrol, Gelandewagen, and Jeeps, as well as our current Montero, I think it's fair to say that the Montero is "offroad"-capable, and as an overall overland vehicle is as good as any.
 

bgenlvtex

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THere are also Monteros (=Pajero=Shogun). Having owned Land Cruiser, Pajero, Patrol, Gelandewagen, and Jeeps, as well as our current Montero, I think it's fair to say that the Montero is "offroad"-capable, and as an overall overland vehicle is as good as any.
I don't think he knows what a "large pick up" is, and has certainly never tried to manage 1000lb/ft of torque @1600rpm in difficult /slick terrain.

Diesel is hot shit for many applications, but too much torque is a thing when you're trying to put it to the ground.