Legal Weapons and Overlanding

[kkriewald]

I feel like we are arguing about which flavor of ice-cream is better. We all like ice cream, right?

 

[Roam_CO85]

@Lanlubber just a quick question.. not pointing fingers or poking a person in the eye. You say that I wont know 99% of the time you are armed OC? If a jacket or coat is long enough to drap over that firearm or a untucked shirt...isnt that concealment? Also with out a permit that is concealing a handgun. Not sure what the laws are in New Mexico. Colorado it has to be in plain view or it becomes concealment. You put a jacket on it gets tucked behind the firearm. Untucked shirt is tucked behind the firearm.

Cops open carry because they have to, that uniform comes off. The gun goes under a shirt 9 times out of ten. The term sheepdog gets thrown around alot. But a protector in sheep’s clothing..When the element of surprise disrupts the thought process of a bad guy you have the upper hand. Falls under your situational awareness. Its not all about guns. You’ve got to be a thinker first and training is more than just a trigger pull punching holes in a target. The oh I open carry because its my right...good for you! do you put in the time train, not just for the shooting but before you need to use that firearm. How about after. You have a life taker. Do you have anything to save a life? Same goes with the ccw holder. Its not the OC or CC its that mindset. Were all here for that same reason. Just the thought process has to be the same.

 

[trikebubble]

I feel like we are arguing about which flavor of ice-cream is better. We all like ice cream, right?

In The States, I used to prefer Tillamook, but now believe Umpqua ice cream is superior and damn tasty. Back home, up here in Canada, my favorite is Chapman's Premium ice cream for sure.

And I'm a firm believer in concealed carry of ice cream, regardless of where I am. Sharing ice cream should remain my prerogative.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

@Lanlubber just a quick question.. not pointing fingers or poking a person in the eye. You say that I wont know 99% of the time you are armed OC? If a jacket or coat is long enough to drap over that firearm or a untucked shirt...isnt that concealment? Also with out a permit that is concealing a handgun. Not sure what the laws are in New Mexico. Colorado it has to be in plain view or it becomes concealment. You put a jacket on it gets tucked behind the firearm. Untucked shirt is tucked behind the firearm.

Cops open carry because they have to, that uniform comes off. The gun goes under a shirt 9 times out of ten. The term sheepdog gets thrown around alot. But a protector in sheep’s clothing..When the element of surprise disrupts the thought process of a bad guy you have the upper hand. Falls under your situational awareness. Its not all about guns. You’ve got to be a thinker first and training is more than just a trigger pull punching holes in a target. The oh I open carry because its my right...good for you! do you put in the time train, not just for the shooting but before you need to use that firearm. How about after. You have a life taker. Do you have anything to save a life? Same goes with the ccw holder. Its not the OC or CC its that mindset. Were all here for that same reason. Just the thought process has to be the same.

In NM complete concealment is illegal except in your house or auto where it is and always has been the law. I don't know how all the sheriffs for every county handle concealment but my county sheriff says as long as the side arm can be seen, not total exposure, he is fine with that. He is the one who gave our CC license test . Supposedly Colorado honors NM CC holders license in Colorado as well as Ariz, not sure about Texas, but being on the border I CC in Texas
like everybody does in the El Paso region. I know you are the law, I have no argument over the law enforcers. I will admit there are laws that I break but they are no worse than anyone else. Speeding is breaking the law and one that I consider more dangerous than me carrying a concealed weapon. Many more people killed every year in auto accidents than killed by guns. 3 times as many kids die from drowning in bath tubs than people killed by guns, No one puts a mother in jail when her kid drowns in a tub or pool it always "oh poor mother lost her kid". I break laws that I don't respect as I think most people do. Obviously I am talking about the drug problem, and can you remember when women had illegal abortions, did you see any going to jail , Or the murder of the unborn , or prostitution, all illegal but easily discarded by many. Personally I think a lot of laws break my right as a human to be free of tyranny and persecutions. Like most we still obey those stupid laws that are made by stupid people. I understand that as a law officer you must enforce those laws, all laws because it is your public obligating to enforce them. You cant distinguish or decide what is right or wrong with a law, you have to blindly obey it yourself. I don't feel the same obligation to obey the laws I disagree with. I have a mind of my own and decide right from wrong by own standards. I agree with the majority which puts me in the good citizen category but no more or no less than everybody else. If I choose to break a law it is my neck and I will not endanger anyone else, and I am man enough to suffer any consequences that come for my actions. I appreciate you advice but it is your choice of opinions and that is how the world goes around. I will give you the last word if you have one but this issues is dead as far as I am concerned. I said way back when this thread started that I would carry my weapons with me where ever I go, but I wont be going to any state that has stupid laws and wont let me protect myself from the bad elements in that state.
Safety be with you, I know you have a tough job protecting people from me.

 

[Billiebob]

Being a Canadian, I"m glad I live in Canada. I've never felt threatened enough to think a gun would help. I've been in situations where not having a weapon diffused a bad situation. And I've honestly never heard a good story about anyone saving the day with a concealed, or open carry weapon. Heck in the UK most policemen don't carry a gun.

It takes far bigger balls to not carry than to carry.

There are thousands of stories of overlanders getting thru sticky situations with people skills, diplomacy, negotiation, personality. There is no need for a gun.... a gun only escalates a bed situation.

But I'll admit, I'm biased living in Canada.

 

[Salty4Life]

Being a Canadian, I"m glad I live in Canada. I've never felt threatened enough to think a gun would help. I've been in situations where not having a weapon diffused a bad situation. And I've honestly never heard a good story about anyone saving the day with a concealed, or open carry weapon. Heck in the UK most policemen don't carry a gun.

It takes far bigger balls to not carry than to carry.

There are thousands of stories of overlanders getting thru sticky situations with people skills, diplomacy, negotiation, personality. There is no need for a gun.... a gun only escalates a bed situation.

But I'll admit, I'm biased living in Canada.

Would you to see some cases were a citizen save the day with a concealed firearm? Check out these cases.

UPDATED: Compiling Cases where concealed handgun permit holders have stopped likely mass public shootings

This is a revised, updated version of a post originally written on April 21, 2015. We have most seriously updated this list starting at the beginning of 2020. UCLA Law Professor Eugene Volokh …

crimeresearch.org

People skills, negotiation, and personality (what I call verbal skill) is more important than the tool, but the tool doesn’t control the situation. Only the tool holder can do that.

 

[trikebubble]

Being a Canadian, I"m glad I live in Canada. I've never felt threatened enough to think a gun would help. I've been in situations where not having a weapon diffused a bad situation. And I've honestly never heard a good story about anyone saving the day with a concealed, or open carry weapon. Heck in the UK most policemen don't carry a gun.

It takes far bigger balls to not carry than to carry.

There are thousands of stories of overlanders getting thru sticky situations with people skills, diplomacy, negotiation, personality. There is no need for a gun.... a gun only escalates a bed situation.

But I'll admit, I'm biased living in Canada.

Well, also being a Canadian, and a licensed gun owner I could take a little exception to your claim on the size of my balls. But we all need to laugh at ourselves every now and then so I'm all good on you balls vs gun vs non-gun comparisons. Having said that, as I mentioned I'm also a very proud Canuck and a gun owner. I never, ever travel or camp in our back country without one. Have I needed one yet? No, also haven't needed the fire extinguisher, but I carry that too (you know, just in case). I imagine you may be surprised at the number of trucks you pass going down a random logging road in Canada that have a rifle in them. It's also an amusing thing to consider that as a legal and licensed gun owner in Canada I am part of a group of citizens that are more law-abiding than those that are not. Yet somehow it us that are pointed at, mocked for being gun owners (back to the balls vs gun vs no-gun thing again), considered a threat to our society, and are forced over and over again to defend our rights by those who as a group are much more likely to, and have commited a crime than we have or ever will. But what do I know, I'm just a quiet Canadian gun owner minding my own business out wandering in the wilderness.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

Well, also being a Canadian, and a licensed gun owner I could take a little exception to your claim on the size of my balls. But we all need to laugh at ourselves every now and then so I'm all good on you balls vs gun vs non-gun comparisons. Having said that, as I mentioned I'm also a very proud Canuck and a gun owner. I never, ever travel or camp in our back country without one. Have I needed one yet? No, also haven't needed the fire extinguisher, but I carry that too (you know, just in case). I imagine you may be surprised at the number of trucks you pass going down a random logging road in Canada that have a rifle in them. It's also an amusing thing to consider that as a legal and licensed gun owner in Canada I am part of a group of citizens that are more law-abiding than those that are not. Yet somehow it us that are pointed at, mocked for being gun owners (back to the balls vs gun vs no-gun thing again), considered a threat to our society, and are forced over and over again to defend our rights by those who as a group are much more likely to, and have commited a crime than we have or ever will. But what do I know, I'm just a quiet Canadian gun owner minding my own business out wandering in the wilderness.

Well said 1969, you said what I was trying to say in a much clearer voice than did I. I feel there is much more truth and honesty in what you said than any of the anti- carry gun crowd persons on this thread from it's beginning. I am truly surprised at how few OB members have not come to the defense of owning and carrying a firearm CC or no CC. CC is for handguns anyway and shouldn't be confused with long gun possession in any way.

Considering what happened to the young couple in Canada 6-8 months ago where two young men murdered them while on their adventure, ruthlessly and in cold blood, I would think all Canadians would be concerned enough to have a firearm for protection. We do get use to our environment and drop our guard all to often in TODAY'S environment of lawlessness and greed.

 

[Clay B]

Being in Idaho do you run into a lot of wolves? Im sure you don’t run into the average bear up there ether. 45-70 that will put a hurting on whats down range and your shoulder! What pistol caliber do you like to use? I know alot of my friends that are in the back country up in montana like the ten mil, I run my 9 mil pretty hot but wildlife isnt my first concern.

I use a .44 Mag revolver most of the time outside. I do have other pistols in smaller calibers, but bears are BIG animals. So are wild boar when you're further south than here. At best, the .44 is marginal for those animals, but I'm in hopes of at least getting them off of or away from me. Overkill and fewer rounds than a more appropriate weapon for other threats, but the animals have been the most prevalent.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

I use a .44 Mag revolver most of the time outside. I do have other pistols in smaller calibers, but bears are BIG animals. So are wild boar when you're further south than here. At best, the .44 is marginal for those animals, but I'm in hopes of at least getting them off of or away from me. Overkill and fewer rounds than a more appropriate weapon for other threats, but the animals have been the most prevalent.

Someone asked me one time if I could only have one gun, what would it be. I always said a Ruger long barrel 44 mag. In my old age I think it would be a Tausus Long barrel Judge Magnum 410/45, because of the versatility.

 

[Billiebob]

and are forced over and over again to defend our rights by those who as a group are much more likely to, and have commited a crime than we have or ever will.

~ Edited NAME CALLING NOT ALLOWED ON THIS FORUM~ imagine that, if someone robs a liquor store the police should be looking for unarmed suspects. I never realized the drug wars, murders and violence in Kelowna and Surrey were fueled by guys without guns. You should be on the lecture circuit enlightening our police forces.

That said, I live in a community where forestry is the top employer and yes, several guys do keep a rifle in the truck, but mostly so they won't miss the opportunity to kill some game. Being avid hunters the rifle has a specific purpose, they usually laugh when anyone suggests it is there for self defense. They have big enough balls to handle them selves without a gun.

 

[Billiebob]

I would think all Canadians would be concerned enough to have a firearm for protection.

Most of us are more concerned with the nightly murders in cities between gangs.

But I doubt many gun owners are willing to pull the trigger early, the gun is just a distraction. I'm more concerned with the guy in a Las Vegas hotel room and his arsenal of bump stop guns. 2 people on a remote road vs 40? in a downtown square, I know where I'm voting.

I think Canada has excellent gun laws. The gun registration thing is just an over the top tax grab.
On the topic of "Do you need a gun?" No.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

Wow, I never realized how stupid some gun owners are, imagine that, if someone robs a liquor store the police should be looking for unarmed suspects. I never realized the drug wars, murders and violence in Kelowna and Surrey were fueled by guys without guns. You should be on the lecture circuit enlightening our police forces.

I think he clearly said, there are a lot more crimes (nothing to do with guns) committed by people without guns than by people who own legal firearms to be exact.

I think you completely misunderstood his comment. I know where he was coming from and I agree with his statement completely. He is just saying "ball size" has nothing to do with whether you carry a gun or not. Your tone and use of words like "bigger balls" is insulting to people who obey the law and carry a legal firearm for whatever reason they feel necessary. Now I'm insulted by your reference to our stupidity for having an opinion that differs from yours, and you force me to call your remarks pretty stupid and insensitive for an adult. I think you are more capable of expressing yourself without the use of negative or derogatory remarks you regularly use in these forums.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

Most of us are more concerned with the nightly murders in cities between gangs.

But I doubt many gun owners are willing to pull the trigger early, the gun is just a distraction. I'm more concerned with the guy in a Las Vegas hotel room and his arsenal of bump stop guns. 2 people on a remote road vs 40? in a downtown square, I know where I'm voting.

My statement stands. Your concerns are yours, they are just misplaced IMO.

 

[Billiebob]

I mostly think a gun escalates any situation. Peaceful resolutions to conflict are easier when no guns are present.

My work takes me into some remote agricultural locations where BC Bud is the product. A few times the directions have been vague and I've stopped for directions. Drive up a strange driveway and you likely meet a guy with a rifle protecting his crop. But it has never been an issue to get directions. They always check my vehicle and I know if they saw a rifle the tension would increase.

In 60 years, I have never felt a gun would help.

 

[Salty4Life]

I mostly think a gun escalates any situation. Peaceful resolutions to conflict are easier when no guns are present.

My work takes me into some remote agricultural locations where BC Bud is the product. A few times the directions have been vague and I've stopped for directions. Drive up a strange driveway and you likely meet a guy with a rifle protecting his crop. But it has never been an issue to get directions. They always check my vehicle and I know if they saw a rifle the tension would increase.

In 60 years, I have never felt a gun would help.

I get that some things might be different in Canada, but in the States, for the most part, if you truly feel a gun doesn’t help, no one is making you carry one.
The only problem comes when people feel like a gun is necessary and people and government are preventing them from having one.

 

[trikebubble]

Wow, I never realized how stupid some gun owners are, imagine that, if someone robs a liquor store the police should be looking for unarmed suspects. I never realized the drug wars, murders and violence in Kelowna and Surrey were fueled by guys without guns. You should be on the lecture circuit enlightening our police forces.

That said, I live in a community where forestry is the top employer and yes, several guys do keep a rifle in the truck, but mostly so they won't miss the opportunity to kill some game. Being avid hunters the rifle has a specific purpose, they usually laugh when anyone suggests it is there for self defense. They have big enough balls to handle them selves without a gun.

Personal insults regarding my level of stupidity aside, individuals that commit crimes with a firearm are not gun owners.... they are criminals. The furthest thing from a legal licensed gun owner in Canada. You don't want to own a firearm, that's ok by me. You don't want me to own firearms, well thats where we start having a problem.

At the end of the day any firearm is just a tool, to be used by the lawful owner to deal with any number of situations, from hunting, to personal safety, to sport, collecting, etc. Making insults and insulation regarding the size of my balls" as it relates to why I want to possess a legal tool is just a slightly immature commentary in my honest opinion.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

I mostly think a gun escalates any situation. Peaceful resolutions to conflict are easier when no guns are present.

My work takes me into some remote agricultural locations where BC Bud is the product. A few times the directions have been vague and I've stopped for directions. Drive up a strange driveway and you likely meet a guy with a rifle protecting his crop. But it never been an issue to get directions. They always check my vehicle and I know if they saw a rifle the tension would increase.

In 60 years, I have never felt a gun would help.

I'm glad you have never encountered a bad guy with a gun. It shows the cultural difference we share. We have many cases of driver rage here usually instigated by racial intolerance, or unskilled drivers from across the border not knowing the laws. For sure if you don't want to get shot while driving, you don't give anyone a finger for their bad driving, you will get shot at in the cities like El Paso Tx.

For me to come across an armed individual is not uncommon at all. I'm not intimidated by the fact someone has a gun, (either concealed or open carry) it is their right the same as me.
I trust a man carrying openly much more than a CC person. The reason being bad guys always conceal, how do I know if it is a legal concealment or illegal concealment. Bad guys never carry openly so I feel anyone who does is the good guy.

Many of the gun toater's are drug pushers or gang members, others are like me who are carrying for self defence. It's not likely I would ever come across a crime being committed.
There is a good chance any criminal act would be against me. I carry only when the environment justifies carrying, as in the city. The rural areas are as safe as you can get ! Everyone in a rural area is armed in some manner and bad guys know it.

I can not truthfully say that everyone carries a gun but likely 60-70% do regularly in my location. Oddly enough I feel the actual crime rate is low because the people here are armed and don't rely on the law for help. Criminals know that.

 

[Expatozzie]

I’m in support of the right to bear arms. I have and continue to work in the physical security industry. I have licenses for exposed carry (for work) and concealed carry (for work, people of prominence protection, and self protection).
I carry while camping and most times over landing.
I train monthly in various formats to keep my skills on point, but can always do more.
I invest money, time and study into - deescalation techniques, hand to hand combat, the psychology of aggression, first aid and cpr training, and emergency response. I have been a past member of my local county sheriff office Disaster Response Team, a member of my local CERT, and provided executive protection (people of prominence).

I believe in your rights to an opinion. I am old enough to know I can’t convince you of anything without a face to face conversation and nor can you convince me without us being hospitable, respectful and face to face.

I think I am more hyper sensitive to dangers because of work, and living in a state where things can go wrong quickly, and hence I carry when exploring.

I absolutely support carrying while adventure bound. I don’t support the right to carry for everyone, and I do support more rigorous background checks, regular documentation of training, and the move towards some form of testing mental state.

 

[MidOH]

Being a Canadian, I"m glad I live in Canada. I've never felt threatened enough to think a gun would help. I've been in situations where not having a weapon diffused a bad situation. And I've honestly never heard a good story about anyone saving the day with a concealed, or open carry weapon. Heck in the UK most policemen don't carry a gun.

It takes far bigger balls to not carry than to carry.

There are thousands of stories of overlanders getting thru sticky situations with people skills, diplomacy, negotiation, personality. There is no need for a gun.... a gun only escalates a bed situation.

But I'll admit, I'm biased living in Canada.

Yeah, come on down to Miami with those balls. I can show you plenty to change your mind. It doesn't matter how big they are, if they're hanging from the mast of a pirate ship as it sails away.

Maybe even OH, KY, PA as well.