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Those fancy mapping apps will not save you...
- Thread starter WYWander
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Advocate II
My only experience is that O helped another Overlander that had the Garmin Overlander edition. We talked for hours trying to get it to work right. He threatened to send it to me to figure it out and then teach him how to get it to work. I politely declined. What a pain it was. We talked to tech support and we were more knowledgeable of their product then they were. It was really sad. The file management architecture is not for the faint of heart, from planning on a pc to transferring the GPX file to the device took a long time to get it synced and then it only worked once. Now I am not an expert on the garmin devices but I played one on tv for 1 season!!!
IMHO, I would not buy one.
That something, a real early 21st Century thing, for the Overlander who has most everything I suspect, showing snowmobile trails!
I don't have one, I probably would never use one if I had it. The Garmin unit I mentioned which I bought decades ago was state of the art, used only a few times in boating lakes and rivers, then it went to a drawer. Later, it went to box in the closet, it still lives today in the garage with a very dead battery.
I think tech is stealing the adventure out of adventure travels, what's adventurous about seeing what's around the next corner or over that hill? Seems to be very little discovery to experience and motivate exploration, you can simply turn on your gizmo and zoom in to an area on the face of the earth.
Gaia lost me with a severe price hike, lack of new features/polish, and the removal of my most-used map layer. In protest, I gave OnX a try. It's fine, I guess. Neither of them have ever worked like I wanted them to.
Avenza has the map layer I want, but has no web-based interface to build routes and add markers. I'm not doing all of that on a phone/tablet. I have too much data to move over. I need a keyboard, mouse, and a large screen to work from.
I'm looking forward to what Mapkind is able to offer. Mapkind GPS Developer Venture4wd/Chris has lived and breathed maps for years. I know he understands the sort of functionality we need most from a mapping app.
Avenza has the map layer I want, but has no web-based interface to build routes and add markers. I'm not doing all of that on a phone/tablet. I have too much data to move over. I need a keyboard, mouse, and a large screen to work from.
I'm looking forward to what Mapkind is able to offer. Mapkind GPS Developer Venture4wd/Chris has lived and breathed maps for years. I know he understands the sort of functionality we need most from a mapping app.
Off-Road Ranger I
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Agreed, I’m subscribed to Gaia. I’ll give it another try when we get back out west. So far- not impressed. We were in Grand Staircase and then up into the San Rafael Swell. Our Nat Geo maps were much more accurate than Gaia. We also Google earthed the area for even more detailed info. However, our best adventures and discovery of the best campsites has always been and remains to be, seat of the pants navigation and checking the paper maps once in a while.
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Two caveats before I light this fuse. Yes, every electronic toy in your rig will eventually fail at the worst possible moment, so have a backup. And yes, not everybody wants to spend absurd amounts of money turning their truck into a rolling NASA experiment.
Still, Starlink may be the single most useful piece of off roading equipment I’ve bought in years. Constant connectivity changes the whole game. Gaia, OnX, Overland Bound, Google, whatever digital map poison you prefer, all of it keeps working out in the dead zones where cell service disappears and common sense usually goes with it. Even when you forgot to preload maps because you were too busy airing down tires and congratulating yourself on being “prepared.”
And the Starlink Mini feels strangely reasonable price wise once you compare it to the rest of the electronic bling people build into their rigs. HAM radios, Garmins, boosters, enough wiring to interrogate Soviet spies. Relative to that madness, the cost barely registers.
The real comfort comes later, deep in the middle of nowhere, when something mechanical starts coughing and grinding in the dark and you realize you can still call for help. That changes the mood considerably.
Still, Starlink may be the single most useful piece of off roading equipment I’ve bought in years. Constant connectivity changes the whole game. Gaia, OnX, Overland Bound, Google, whatever digital map poison you prefer, all of it keeps working out in the dead zones where cell service disappears and common sense usually goes with it. Even when you forgot to preload maps because you were too busy airing down tires and congratulating yourself on being “prepared.”
And the Starlink Mini feels strangely reasonable price wise once you compare it to the rest of the electronic bling people build into their rigs. HAM radios, Garmins, boosters, enough wiring to interrogate Soviet spies. Relative to that madness, the cost barely registers.
The real comfort comes later, deep in the middle of nowhere, when something mechanical starts coughing and grinding in the dark and you realize you can still call for help. That changes the mood considerably.
Just think how Overlanders survived before Marconi saved the day with his spark gap transmitter and receiver back in '96........that's 1896!
Even back in the '70's traveling all over Europe in my '64 VW Bug and later in my '72 Volvo 145, with no cell phone, no radio, just a small mirror and a horn. Usually pitched a tent, but not always in stealth mode in forests or beaches. If we had trouble you'd hike out for help.
In fact, the family story about homesteading a few Sections for the ranch began when the wagon broke down and there, they were, in the early 1800's.
Adventure? Following directions with your GPS with your Sat Phone in the console doesn't really seem that exciting. maybe some have lost interest from boredom.
Even back in the '70's traveling all over Europe in my '64 VW Bug and later in my '72 Volvo 145, with no cell phone, no radio, just a small mirror and a horn. Usually pitched a tent, but not always in stealth mode in forests or beaches. If we had trouble you'd hike out for help.
In fact, the family story about homesteading a few Sections for the ranch began when the wagon broke down and there, they were, in the early 1800's.
Adventure? Following directions with your GPS with your Sat Phone in the console doesn't really seem that exciting. maybe some have lost interest from boredom.
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Off-Road Ranger I
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15 years ago the kids insisted we get a PLB. So we did. I keep it registered and carry it with us when we are hiking. Just in case. Starlink has made almost all other long distance communication devices obsolete. Our kids gave us a Starlink mini as we began our full time travels. There is something to be said for being able to make or receive a phone call from friends or family when we are hours or days away from any cell phone service.
I, too, have recently invested in Starlink Mini and have a Garmin Mini for hiking. I also have detailed paper trail maps for various wilderness areas and even a Rand McNally street maps book. These are all tools I use to enhance my travels. Like having a nicely engineered hammer rather than a rock. None of these items lessen my sense of adventure, which is rooted in exploration and discovery. There are trails I hike repeatedly and the experience is different each time - weather, wildlife, terrain, people or no people. I try to revel in and appreciate each unique experience. Having better mapping only makes me more prepared and efficient. Satellite service, GPS, etc. are all just better hammers.
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The apps are only useless and "fancy" if you don't know how to use them. I find them MUCH better than paper maps since I have actual satellite imagery on my Gaia app and can see the actual landscape, no paper map will give you that vantage point. Isn't seat of the pants "navigation" just driving blind? I never heard of that term before. I load the maps and views I want, and I am going it with a much more concise picture of where I am going before I leave to go anywhere.
Advocate II
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Whatever mapping you are using. Know your route before you start moving, at least to the best of your ability. If you are travelling in a group, everybody should know the intended route before you set off. It is okay to make changes on the way, but the chances of going the wrong way are reduced.
Off-Road Ranger I
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Well, no, seat of the pants navigation is being quite the opposite of being blind. I was recently is a remote area without paper maps and without digital maps because of the heavy canopy. I broke camp and knew I wanted to be heading in a generally southwest direction so I made a right hand turn and followed my instinct. I knew it was important to follow along the ridge line. It was obvious to me that at each of three intersections I came to that I kept going straight, as I did not want to cross over the ridge or go down to the rushing creek below. I wanted to follow along either knowing that eventually the creek and or, the ridge, would bring me to a paved road. After about 3 hours I did come upon a paved country road, made a left, crossed the creek and finally regained service. Pulled up a digital map and found that I was just about where I wanted to be. As a young person I used to haul show livestock to various livestock shows all over Ohio and Pennsylvania. We had state maps back then, but not much in the way of details. I’d get to a town or small city and usually find the show barns, by the seat of my pants. My wife and I often put all the maps down, get to a fork in the road, and take it. That’s how we discovered beach camping on your wonderful Cape Freel.
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Trail Blazer III
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We just returned yesterday from an 18 day trip from Washington down thru Moab and into Silverton area of CO. Have been a long time user of both Gaia and OnX, and use Gaia as our travel data base with continuous tracking of everywhere we went on our trip along with waypoints added with photos and notes about the places we have been. We find this 'history' of our travels to be often more important than the route planning of where we are going to go. I like to have the stats of where we went, how much elevation gain/loss, best campsites etc to use for future trips and just to look back on. Its fun to see how much of the country we have covered over the years. (we record highway, off road, plane, and train travel all in different colors) We like OnX for locating random off road trails as we travel. This trip was the first one where we have had vehicle mounted starlink. For us this was a game changer to have constant access to maps, weather, and the internet (when needed). We travel mostly alone and with one of us having added serious medical issues to our plate, communication and online navigation allows for us to improve the safety of travelling alone farther from the 'grid' if you will. We do not do any significant planning in advance for our trips and seldom do we pre-plot a course to follow with the elctronic maps, as we much prefer to explore than follow. However it is cool to be able to pull up information on locations and things that you find along your travels. that way we still get seat of your pants exploring and not knowing what is around the next corner, but the ability to dig up the dates, history and old photos of a mine complex that you stumbled across can really let you almost feel like it would have been 100 or so years ago. Probably the most important part of the whole electronic world of travel and communication for us is for when the brown stuff hits the rotary oscillator. This trip we were travelling down a lengthy 'dry' wash in Utah, when we received an urgent thunder storm / flash flood warning from our weather app. No signs of any impeding issue visually, but we could see nasty weather building in real time, over the ridge and then used BLM online maps and Gaia satellite & topo maps to find a viable alternate route back to the main road at a higher elevation. More than likely we could have done the same by seat of the pants, but its nice to have all the help you can get when you need it. We did visit with an off road recovery company the following day and they did mention that they had a couple of rigs in the same area that were not so fortunate that they were going to go get when the water receded.
think of it as construction work....the hammer is the old paper map and the cordless nail gun is the electronic app. instead of choosing just the one, have BOTH.
I'm old school and love my paper maps...like the hammer, they are always available and very reliable and I'm very comfortable using them. my wife kicks butt with electronics and is very adept at using Google to find BLM land, dispersed camp sites, any sales at Dillards along with everything else. she can find the nearest gas station when we are running on fumes. lots of great stuff that I cant get from a paper map. then there are times we don't have reception...well, a LOT of times without reception because we like being that remote. and times where the battery is dead and she lost the charger or whatever. the fancy nail gun/electronic app wont work and that is when the hammer comes in to save the day.
in addition to a road Atlas, I also buy the gazetteers that have extremely detailed information including topographical maps and trails you might not even find on the electronic apps. i'm 100% confident in my paper maps and the wife is very confident in her Google skills.
like I always tell my wife...i'm an "AND" person, not an "OR" person. I don't want either a paper map OR an electronic app...I want a paper map AND an electronic app
don't know how many of y'all know about the gazetteer, but it is a really good map to have if you are going deep into a specific area. I bought the new Mexico gazetteer specifically for our trip to the Gila and it was very much worth the $20 for all the good detailed info it had. I really like maps like this because I can sit at the campsite and see the entire area I'm interested in versus only seeing a little at a time on a phone screen. I just prefer to see more of an overall view that only paper maps can give.
come to think of it...I generally use my paper maps to plan the trip and my wife navigates and uses the phone app to assist and fine tune the trip as we go.
as to the OP and his tagline "Those fancy mapping apps will not save you..." I do agree with that. if all we had was my wife and her phone and she dropped the phone in the creek...we're screwed as far as navigating. if all we had was my paper maps and I dropped it in the creek, I can still read it.
just sayin'
I'm old school and love my paper maps...like the hammer, they are always available and very reliable and I'm very comfortable using them. my wife kicks butt with electronics and is very adept at using Google to find BLM land, dispersed camp sites, any sales at Dillards along with everything else. she can find the nearest gas station when we are running on fumes. lots of great stuff that I cant get from a paper map. then there are times we don't have reception...well, a LOT of times without reception because we like being that remote. and times where the battery is dead and she lost the charger or whatever. the fancy nail gun/electronic app wont work and that is when the hammer comes in to save the day.
in addition to a road Atlas, I also buy the gazetteers that have extremely detailed information including topographical maps and trails you might not even find on the electronic apps. i'm 100% confident in my paper maps and the wife is very confident in her Google skills.
like I always tell my wife...i'm an "AND" person, not an "OR" person. I don't want either a paper map OR an electronic app...I want a paper map AND an electronic app
don't know how many of y'all know about the gazetteer, but it is a really good map to have if you are going deep into a specific area. I bought the new Mexico gazetteer specifically for our trip to the Gila and it was very much worth the $20 for all the good detailed info it had. I really like maps like this because I can sit at the campsite and see the entire area I'm interested in versus only seeing a little at a time on a phone screen. I just prefer to see more of an overall view that only paper maps can give.
come to think of it...I generally use my paper maps to plan the trip and my wife navigates and uses the phone app to assist and fine tune the trip as we go.
as to the OP and his tagline "Those fancy mapping apps will not save you..." I do agree with that. if all we had was my wife and her phone and she dropped the phone in the creek...we're screwed as far as navigating. if all we had was my paper maps and I dropped it in the creek, I can still read it.
just sayin'
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Off-Road Ranger I
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My feeling as well about paper maps, one can see the entire region and understand immediately our relevance in it. Yes, one can expand or contact on a screen, it as soon as you expand the area, the details are lost. Paper gives us the best of both worlds. Are those Delorme Gazetteer maps available on the shelf at outfitter stores?
sometimes I see them at an outfitter, but I just order on Amazon or off thriftbooks.com
paper maps are harder to find. I remember I used to go to a gas station and get the folding paper state map that would open up so big it would cover a coffee table. great maps with lots of detail. harder to find now.
Trail Blazer III
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Well said, I am also an 'AND' person, especially cake AND ice cream ..... We always try to stop by the local land agency, forest service, BLM offices etc. and you can often get some great paper maps of the area from them often for free, along with some great tips of what to see or avoid, favorite hangouts for the animals etc.
