Newbie comms questions (HAM/GMRS/APRS)

[walkabout_ca]

While we have some experience with overlanding, I am a complete newbie when it comes to overlanding comms. We have a Garmin InReach, and that's it. We use it for automatic tracking and sharing our location with the home front, a little bit of messaging, and (not yet, fortunately) emergencies. We expect to do most of our overlanding in the USA, west of the Mississippi (so far solo, but looking to do some weekend rally points, so group comms would be very handy), and hope to make the occasional longer solo trips to West Canada, Alaska, and Baja. We have a 4Runner dedicated to overlanding, so permanent installation of gear is very much possible.

There is a lot of great information on this forum, but I would appreciate some pointers to help narrow our focus.

• Can we get by with picking one type of radio? It seems Ham is the most popular in our area, correct?
• Would it make sense to start with a handheld (listen only), get the license, get more experience using it for group travel, and then go for a better mobile unit? We are a member of the buy-once-cry-once club (within reason), but getting something complex to start with may not be a great idea.
• Is a single handheld of much use when you travel solo? It seems like for things such as calling for help (or helping others) in non-life threatening situations a mobile unit with some power and a good antenna would be much more useful, correct?
• Does a fancy mobile unit with APRS etc make sense when you already use sat comm location tracking and messaging?
• Any suggestions on what to buy to get started? Something solid and easy to use would be great.

 

[Kent R]

@Prerunner1982 @M Rose Can you help out this member.

 

[Sparksalot]

West coast, my recommendation would be ham. Really anywhere, but that’s another matter.

A mobile is definitely the choice over a handheld ,just due to power output. Either way get an exterior antenna.

You can start with a basic 2 meter rig for lower entry cost. This will almost always be a monolithic single piece unit. Stepping up a little bit will offer going to dualband, and likely a remote faceplate, allowing mounting flexibility. For brands, Alinco, Icom, Kenwood.

APRS is something you can do now or later. I use an older 2m mobile for that. But have the cable to use a handheld too.

The main ham rig in both of my vehicles is an Icom 2730.

 

[Prerunner1982]

I pretty much agree with @TahoePPV
As he mentioned a 2m mono band radio will work to get you started but why limit yourself? I had planned on starting with a 2m only radio too until I found out the largest linked repeater system in my area (covering about 1/2 the state) was on 70cm. So I saved up a little longer.
APRS doesn't work everywhere if you are wanting to use it for showing your location on the internet, that depends on ham provided infrastructure. It works in many places but not 100%, it can still be a handy tool especially if traveling in a group where the others are also running it. I too added APRS later using a separate 2m only radio.

Also you can do a MARS mod to a ham radio and get access to other frequencies for emergency purposes. But that typically involves knowing who is using what frequency in a particular area.

GMRS is good for group/convoy comms as it doesn't require a test, only a pay to play license. GMRS has mobile radios as well with up to 50 watts.

 

[Ubiety]

• Can we get by with picking one type of radio? It seems Ham is the most popular in our area, correct?

Don't know your area but my experience (PNW) is that GMRS is the most widely used amongst groups. I am aware of a group in E WA that uses CB and have never been in a group where everyone is a licensed HAM. That said, if you have the interest, getting your HAM ticket can be rewarding and fun and will help fill in knowledge gaps.

• Would it make sense to start with a handheld (listen only), get the license, get more experience using it for group travel, and then go for a better mobile unit? We are a member of the buy-once-cry-once club (within reason), but getting something complex to start with may not be a great idea.

I recommend both - that way you have a backup and can hand a radio to a spotter. If you are only going to get one mobile is the way to go. You can get "simple" mobiles that are not too daunting (especially GMRS variety but HAM too). I find HTs (handheld) to be miserable while driving - you need to grab it to talk and sometimes listen (yes you can get a remote mic) and it is likely going to have wires attached that will tangle - power and antenna. As @TahoePPV pointed out you will want an external antenna as rubber ducky antennas are severely limited and will end up making the experience not as nice as it could be.

• Is a single handheld of much use when you travel solo? It seems like for things such as calling for help (or helping others) in non-life threatening situations a mobile unit with some power and a good antenna would be much more useful, correct?

Yes and no - there has to be someone on the other end to answer and that is likely not the case (this really depends on how remote you go). Again, I never recommend an HT as mobiles have more power, must have an external antenna and are generally nicer to work with.

• Does a fancy mobile unit with APRS etc make sense when you already use sat comm location tracking and messaging?

As @Prerunner1982 pointed out there has to be existing APRS infrastructure available to receive your packets in order for others to see where you are. That said, after the initial investment it is free. No contracts or message fees as are typically found in SatCom solutions. My radio has two active "channels"; one is set to the group channel and the other is for APRS. I pass out a URL to an APRS tracking site to friends and family before I leave solo and they can use that to track me. I accept that they will not always have my latest position but as long as they can see movement over time they will know that I am all right. APRS also offers some other fun things like messaging, sending SMS message, sending email, etc. These are all limited but are there to play with. This is all highly dependent upon your desire to geek out with APRS.

• Any suggestions on what to buy to get started? Something solid and easy to use would be great.

Anything with the name Kenwood on it ;) Seriously though I'd look at one of the Midland GMRS mobile radios unless you do want to go the HAM route. Even if you do the HAM thing you will still need a GMRS radio when traveling with groups using GMRS.

 

[El-Dracho]

I agree with @Prerunner1982 Regarding HAM, I would also start with a 2m/ 70cm radio. And APRS is a great tool. So if it's in the budget, I would look for a radio that has both bands and APRS. I would prefer a mobile unit to a handheld unit because of the transmitting power.

The way I did it was to do the license first. Then I studied the different possibilities and differnet radios intensively. And then I bought a radio. An experienced HAM helped me with the installation in my rig. I posted some pictures of the Yaesu FTM-100 install in my Defender here.

Yaesu FTM-100 install in my LR Defender

Hello! When looking for information about installing a 2m / 70cmradio in the Defender Tdci, I didn't find that much. So I thought to myself, I'll document the installation a bit. Maybe it will help someone here. When I bought the radio, I was looking for a 2m/ 70cm dual band with APRS and a...

www.overlandbound.com

More ideas for HAM setups you could find in this thread:

Let's see some HAM setups in your rigs

I was thinking of getting the head unit of my 2730a put on my dash. I am rethinking that because the sun may affect it. Any of you run your removable heads on the dash with no issues? I was going to use the tray in the center of my Wrangler. Trying to see some setups before I buy another thing...

www.overlandbound.com

Maybe this will give you some ideas and help.

Bjoern

 

[94Cruiser]

My experience is that CB is mostly unusable. I've chosen 70cm and 2m as mine and got an inexpensive Chinese permanently mounted radio. It's nothing fancy, but it does what it's supposed to do. I also have 3 Baofeng U5R handhelds so I don't HAVE to be at my truck to communicate.

I also have a set of FRS radios that are license free that come in really handy....(even though my Chinese radio and my Baofengs can be programmed to these frequencies)

 

[walkabout_ca]

Thanks all, lots of food for thought.

When you use a HT around your vehicle, do you set up the mobile unit as a repeater? Otherwise you wouldn't have much range I suppose. Is that a pretty standard feature of a mobile unit?

 

[Ubiety]

Thanks all, lots of food for thought.

When you use a HT around your vehicle, do you set up the mobile unit as a repeater? Otherwise you wouldn't have much range I suppose. Is that a pretty standard feature of a mobile unit?

I never have - but I cannot think of many reasons to do so. Can you provide a scenario where this might be useful to you? The only thing I can think of might be sitting in camp and waiting for others, who are far off, to contact you on the radio - this would allow some freedom of movement and might also take a toll on the vehicle's battery charge. When I am with a group we stick together and arrive at camp together so there is no need to monitor the radio unless doing so out of interest.

 

[walkabout_ca]

Thanks. I was just thinking that if we were to start with a HT what use it might have after we get a mobile unit. We don't need something handheld to communicate between the two of us as we pretty much venture out together, and spotting with hand signals works just fine for us. The scenario you mention might be one, but I hadn't considered that the radio can be a considerable load.

I guess before we dive into this new world of comms I'd like to gauge how big the Diderot Effect is going to be. Mobile HAM unit, wiring, mounts, antennas, speaker, HTs, APRS unit, GMRS unit(s), . It sounds like HAM+GMRS is unavoidable in the long run, but (dual band) HAM is the one to start with (since it seems to be the comms of choice in our region). And to start with a mobile unit, which may be enough.

 

[OTH Overland]

I use the cross band repeat function occasionaly, although not as much as I used to. If i am going to be away from the vehicle (hiking for expample) I will leave it set up so my HT can have greater range for emergency comms (was popular during my SAR days also) now with the Garmin In-reach providing emergency communications from pretty much anywhere it doesnt get the use so much.

 

[Ubiety]

since it seems to be the comms of choice in our region

This is very important. Sounds like you are getting a grasp on it all - don't worry something new will pop up to confuse you. Hahaha.
One use for an extra HT is to hand out as a loaner to a friend on the trail. I carry 2-3 in addition to the main mobile just in case. And yes, I have been accused of carrying too much - working on that ;)
Speaker is cheap and not always necessary.
A HAM mobile with APRS will be on the pricier end of the spectrum but will save you from buying again or adding more complexity later. Of course if you desire to play with APRS...

but I hadn't considered that the radio can be a considerable load.
Mainly when transmitting.

 

[walkabout_ca]

That reminds me, when I grew up one of our neighbors was a field officer for the Dutch FCC (hunting down illegal radio stations etc), and his car was filled to the brim with equipment. In his spare time he restored WWII military radios. His attic was quite the museum. I guess I have visions of our car stuffed with radios, power meters and spectrum analyzers .

 

[Ubiety]

My wife is half Dutch and her grandfather always used to say "If you aint Dutch you aint much". He was a great guy.

 

[M Rose]

Thanks. I was just thinking that if we were to start with a HT what use it might have after we get a mobile unit. We don't need something handheld to communicate between the two of us as we pretty much venture out together, and spotting with hand signals works just fine for us. The scenario you mention might be one, but I hadn't considered that the radio can be a considerable load.

I guess before we dive into this new world of comms I'd like to gauge how big the Diderot Effect is going to be. Mobile HAM unit, wiring, mounts, antennas, speaker, HTs, APRS unit, GMRS unit(s), . It sounds like HAM+GMRS is unavoidable in the long run, but (dual band) HAM is the one to start with (since it seems to be the comms of choice in our region). And to start with a mobile unit, which may be enough.

I have spent most of this summer experimenting with using just an HT for 2m/70cm communication… places I could hit the repeaters easily with 25 watts I can hear, but they can’t hear me… Last night I tried using my 8 watt HT to hit a repeater 15 miles away with an external J-Pole antenna stretched out to 110’ above the ground without any luck getting into the repeater… my buddy was parked next to me and using his Yasue FTM-400XD on 35watts and a mag mount antenna was getting into the net no problem…

My HT set up as a packet station using a Mobilinkd TNC3 and an app for my iPhone called APRS.FI I am
Able to hit the digi-peaters in my area without a problem… I was able to check into the net via APRS messaging.

Would it make sense to start with a handheld (listen only), get the license, get more experience using it for group travel, and then go for a better mobile unit? We are a member of the buy-once-cry-once club (within reason), but getting something complex to start with may not be a great idea.

No, This doesn’t make sense. Start with the most powerful unit you can afford. As far as get now and listen only… sure…just remember you can’t hit the Push to Talk button until you get your license.

• Is a single handheld of much use when you travel solo? It seems like for things such as calling for help (or helping others) in non-life threatening situations a mobile unit with some power and a good antenna would be much more useful, correct? An HT is great for hiking to a ridge top to try and make contacts and is better than nothing while solo, but save up and get power.
• Does a fancy mobile unit with APRS etc make sense when you already use sat comm location tracking and messaging? Yes APRS always makes sense… the more tools in your tool kit the better prepared you are.
• Any suggestions on what to buy to get started? Something solid and easy to use would be great. Anything from the Big Three (Yasue, Icom, Kenwood ) are going to be the easiest to use right out of the box. Invest the extra $25-35 for the RT Systems programming software with their programming cable for your radio. As for radios I’m a big fan of the Yasue FTM400XDR, Icom IC5100, and the Kenwood 710D (The Kenwood 710D has since been discontinued but well worth the cost if you can find one second hand or NOS).
  
  
• 
  

Lastly, since mostly solo look into getting your general license so you can use the HF bands. In an emergency you will be more likely to find someone on HF than on VHF/UHF, especially down there in California. Although repeater coverage down there is amazing, I see more contacts logged on 20 and 40m for Summits on the Air and Parks on the Air than on 2m/70cm combined. If you get your general license, you can’t beat a “shack in the box” transceiver like the Icom IC7100 or Yasue FT991A. Both radios cover 2M, 70cm, and 6-180m. This gives you one radio to cover all of the commonly used HF bands with the only drawback that you can’t use UHF, VHF and HF at the same time. But for solo use this is seldom ever needed. The only time I wish my IC7100 was a dual band radio is when I’m running with a group that uses GMRS and VHF at the same time, because I can’t listen to GMRS and VHF at the same time.

 

[walkabout_ca]

Thanks, I think I'll be going for the Yasue FTM400XDR. Any suggestions what to get for the antenna? We have a GFC RTT on our roof and OEM bumpers, so something hood or A-pillar mounted would be best I think.

 

[Ubiety]

Thanks, I think I'll be going for the Yasue FTM400XDR. Any suggestions what to get for the antenna? We have a GFC RTT on our roof and OEM bumpers, so something hood or A-pillar mounted would be best I think.

I run a Comet CA-2X4SR broadband antenna with optional CA-SPR spring kit mounted to the front cowl of my Jeep. I like this antenna and the spring kit means that the antenna can bend when I run it through low tree branches.

At the risk of making the Yaesu owners mad... Yaesu does not allow access to the TNC which means that you cannot use that radio for more advanced APRS activities and things like WinLink (email over RF). Please correct me if I am wrong as I think those are neat radios but have stuck with Kenwood to be able to access the TNC directly. TNC is Terminal Node Controller and can be thought of as a modem of sorts - its inclusion is mostly what makes an APRS radio an APRS radio.

 

[M Rose]

Thanks, I think I'll be going for the Yasue FTM400XDR. Any suggestions what to get for the antenna? We have a GFC RTT on our roof and OEM bumpers, so something hood or A-pillar mounted would be best I think.

I’m a huge fan of the Rugged brand accessory mounts. The A pillar would be a more ideal mounting location over the bumper, although adding a mount to the under side of your RTT would probably get you the best performance (if possible). I’m not much of a help on antenna selection because I don’t own a single commercially available antenna; in other words, I home brew all of my antennas.

@Prerunner1982is the antenna guru. Although it might also help to know what vehicle you drive I order to help select the best antenna for your application.

Rugged Radio Antenna Mounts.

 

[M Rose]

I run a Comet CA-2X4SR broadband antenna with optional CA-SPR spring kit mounted to the front cowl of my Jeep. I like this antenna and the spring kit means that the antenna can bend when I run it through low tree branches.

At the risk of making the Yaesu owners mad... Yaesu does not allow access to the TNC which means that you cannot use that radio for more advanced APRS activities and things like WinLink (email over RF). Please correct me if I am wrong as I think those are neat radios but have stuck with Kenwood to be able to access the TNC directly. TNC is Terminal Node Controller and can be thought of as a modem of sorts - its inclusion is mostly what makes an APRS radio an APRS radio.

You are not wrong, although most of the APRS features in the Yasue FT400XDR are accessible from the head unit. However I’m unsure if you can send SMS via APRS to a phone with the 400XDR. I know you can send messages back and forth between APRS users with or without the need of an igate.

WORK AROUND
Mobilinkd makes an adapter cable to go from the Mobilinked TNC3 to the Yasue FTM-400XDR, but this looses one of the dual bands (not necessarily a bad thing if all you are doing on the second band is operating packet or digital modes such as sending/receiving Email via WinLink or running FT8 or RTTY.

 

[Ubiety]

However I’m unsure if you can send SMS via APRS to a phone

You can, its just a specially formatted APRS message. Of course you need to be able to hit a digi and/or igate and have your message routed to the SMS server - which is in Canada I believe.