Higher Fuel Prices And Overlanding

[Billiebob]

I don't think petrol prices will ever see the folly before 2007 at more 100 U.S $ / barrel..
What might change is the fuel taxes, and with the debt that all countries have, it might go up in time.
Anyway, US has nothing to complain, I think they are one of the OECD countries with the lowest price ever. If you think fuel is expensive there take a trip in Europe.... hence the love story with diesel here...
Overlanding.. not an issue. So you go a normal trip, not overlanding, stay in hotels and buy 3 meals at restaurants per day for the whole family. Even if the fuel doubles in price for me it will be cheaper to overland than a standard trip..

exactly, world wide demand is dropping as countries focus on alternate forms of energy, that should say lower gas prices but taxes will more than make up the difference. The infernal carbon tax will gather steam, the penalties, tariffs from countries getting rid of fossil fuels will force companies to either justify the use of fossil fuels or.... switch. The world order is changing and penalties vs rewards will accelerate the process. Gone will be subsidies for "green" technologies, replaced with penalties for fossil fuel use.

won't matter what we think, countries like India and China with 10 times our population dealing with excessive polution will start leading the way. Europe too. And every country without oil reserves will be fully behind alteratives to oil.

Heck even countries like Norway with massive oil reserves are well on board with e-tech vehicles.

 

[genocache]

In Calif we haven't seen that price since the 90's........Currently $3.55/g for diesel. Petrol dropped during Covid but not diesel.

 

[MOAK]

This is like saying America shouldn't complain about getting cancer because Europeans have had cancer for a long time now.

Curious what nation you live in and how many miles on average you drive a year?

Actually, no, it’s not anything like comparing or complaining about life threatening diseases. Our fuel is currently cheap, it’s been cheap, and probably always will be cheap when compared to a percentage of our average income or to what the rest of the developed world pays for fuel. Americans have been addicted to cheap energy costs for hundreds of years, beginning with cheap firewood, then coal, then oil, natural gas, etc etc. Inexpensive energy, like anything else that is inexpensive gets wasted. Any time Americans are asked to pull their belts in a notch ( conservation measures ) we whine like the little spoiled brats that we are.

 

[MOAK]

In Calif we haven't seen that price since the 90's........Currently $3.55/g for diesel. Petrol dropped during Covid but not diesel.

Very true.. diesel prices will always be as much as what the transportation industry is willing to pay for energy. They don’t start squeaking until around $5 a gallon. I distinctly remember back in what, 2006 or 2007, paying just about $5.60 a gallon. The trucks and trains kept right on rolling

 

[MidOH]

And passing the cost on down to you. They didn't squeak, because they charged extra for fuel, and actually made a little extra, because they overcharged just a hair.

We raised or mileage charges 3 times during that mess, and added a fuel surcharge.

 

[MOAK]

And passing the cost on down to you. They didn't squeak, because they charged extra for fuel, and actually made a little extra, because they overcharged just a hair.

We raised or mileage charges 3 times during that mess, and added a fuel surcharge.

Well sure, but the surcharge for fuel wasn’t all that much. A buddy of mine sold wood pellet at right around 200 a ton.. the fuel spiked up, a surcharge was added. If my budddy had passed that excess cost directly to the customer it would have been less than 10 dollars a ton. Unfortunately he used it as an excuse to raise it up to 250 a ton. He, along with everyone else on the receivingend used the excuse to gouge the final customer.. $ 500 in fuel to transport spikes up to $650 that’s only 150 more to transport 22 ton of product 6.81 per ton.. that 3% increase is only noticeable for very heavy inexpensive loads.. lighter freight , electronics, household items, clothing, groceries, etc equals way less than 3% increase as the freight is worth quite possible 50 or 60 thousand dollars instead of only 5 or 6 thousand, thereby increasing the cost of transporting by .3% which is negligible.. anytime fuel spikes up, and retailers use it as an excuse for the price of goods to go up, we, the consumers are getting ripped off.

 

[leeloo]

This is like saying America shouldn't complain about getting cancer because Europeans have had cancer for a long time now.

Curious what nation you live in and how many miles on average you drive a year?

I don't agree is the same thing.
I know you like cheap gas, who does not ? who does not like a nice big V8 ? but is unsustainable long therm. Changes will come. You have big V8 engines in US because the tax system and the gas price allows it. Are they nice to have ? for sure. Can you live without them.. definitely. in the early 90's people were doing the Pamir Highway at 4000 m altitude with 80 HP not turbo diesel pick ups . Now 200 HP and 400nm of torque with the same payload is considered underpowered.. you need to have 400 HP., than your ok...

As it says in the avatar thing, in live Luxembourg, a very small country sandwiched between Germany, France and Belgium borders. It has the cheapest gas in West Europe , but is still about 3 times more expensive than U.S. Also is one of the last places in left in Europe where is still feasible to own cars with big engines, the tax system is more favorable, but even here things are changing..


I have 2 cars, a daily driver - a small hybrid that that does about 50 mpg US and a pick - up , used most as a hobby car, for long distance traveling, holidays, week-ends off roading -camping..this kind of activities, with a 2.4 diesel that does about 21-22 mpg when fully loaded and in Overland type of traveling..(back roads, offroading etc.. ) On occasion when I need to haul some more stuff I use it as well, but rarely. Not a daily driver definitely. Even a full month can go without me even starting the engine, specially since the covid situation.
Before the pandemic I was doing around 22k US miles (this is with both cars in total. )
After the pandemic.. not sure. A lot less. I no longer go to work, only teleworking. Traveling for leisure is still restricted and was restricted almost all last year. Did some short trips only. Last year in April I had trip planned to Morocco. Just the round trip to get there would be 3000 miles, plus another 2000 visiting , do a bit of the Sahar desert and the Atlas mountains... did no happen . For the summer 2020 I had planned to go in Asia to Georgia and Armenia -- another 5-6000 miles just to get there and back.. of course no possible... So I did a lot less miles than planned...

 

[Murphy Slaw]

I'll keep my Hemi.

Thanks, though.....

 

[Boostpowered]

It's in negative temps in texas. The power has been out all night woke up to 27° in my house the water in my toilet is frozen solid , there is no propane to be found for miles and miles thanks to govonor Abbott, he ordered rolling blackout for no reason and didn't think to increase the lp supplies so It kind-of is gonna be political especially when people die from exposure in their own home due to his ignorance. This one event is gonna turn texas blue in the next election just to get rid of wheels.

If anyone in or near hunt County has some propane to spare I'll buy it for a bit more than it's worth.

 

[LostWoods]

I don't agree is the same thing.
I know you like cheap gas, who does not ? who does not like a nice big V8 ? but is unsustainable long therm. Changes will come. You have big V8 engines in US because the tax system and the gas price allows it. Are they nice to have ? for sure. Can you live without them.. definitely. in the early 90's people were doing the Pamir Highway at 4000 m altitude with 80 HP not turbo diesel pick ups . Now 200 HP and 400nm of torque with the same payload is considered underpowered.. you need to have 400 HP., than your ok...

As it says in the avatar thing, in live Luxembourg, a very small country sandwiched between Germany, France and Belgium borders. It has the cheapest gas in West Europe , but is still about 3 times more expensive than U.S. Also is one of the last places in left in Europe where is still feasible to own cars with big engines, the tax system is more favorable, but even here things are changing..


I have 2 cars, a daily driver - a small hybrid that that does about 50 mpg US and a pick - up , used most as a hobby car, for long distance traveling, holidays, week-ends off roading -camping..this kind of activities, with a 2.4 diesel that does about 21-22 mpg when fully loaded and in Overland type of traveling..(back roads, offroading etc.. ) On occasion when I need to haul some more stuff I use it as well, but rarely. Not a daily driver definitely. Even a full month can go without me even starting the engine, specially since the covid situation.
Before the pandemic I was doing around 22k US miles (this is with both cars in total. )
After the pandemic.. not sure. A lot less. I no longer go to work, only teleworking. Traveling for leisure is still restricted and was restricted almost all last year. Did some short trips only. Last year in April I had trip planned to Morocco. Just the round trip to get there would be 3000 miles, plus another 2000 visiting , do a bit of the Sahar desert and the Atlas mountains... did no happen . For the summer 2020 I had planned to go in Asia to Georgia and Armenia -- another 5-6000 miles just to get there and back.. of course no possible... So I did a lot less miles than planned...

There's a key word in this and I'll give you a hint: they're everywhere in the rest of the world and we'll never see them at that scale in the US because people see them as dirty.

The answer is diesel. You're absolutely right that we don't need 400hp but we do need the torque to move a 3 ton pickup. The only way to get that out of a gas engine is either displacement or forced induction - neither of which can match the power per liter of a diesel engine even in larger form.

We're just now seeing diesels break into the compact truck market with GM and Jeep both offering one but they're prohibitively expensive (like a $4-5k USD option which is an over 10% increase) for most and offer no real benefits other than a bit of extra fuel economy that is quickly wiped out by sky high diesel and maintenance costs. Capable hybrids and electrics are coming (from Jeep no less) but, well, those aren't exactly conducive to being out in bumfuck for a few days on end exploring when you're chained to an inadequate charger network strung out across the emptiness.

It's just the constraints we deal with. I'd love to see the Hilux and LC70 and other turbo diesel platforms over here but we won't. Even when fuel prices skyrocket, the most we'll see is hybrid/electric and that's not exactly going to help most of us here.

 

[LostWoods]

I'll go diving instead. Overlanding is already on the chopping block due to lack of reward. Too much effort, not enough fun. Both of my favorite quarries have campgrounds now. 18-19mpg easy, with my F250, on the way to those due to straight 55mph roads

The last trip we did, the Kids would have rather gone to a regular state park. I can set my cruise control and get 17mpg all the way to East Harbor State Park in Marblehead/Sandusky Ohio. That'll be a better option if gas goes up, especially since it's paved 55mph roads to those.

Shutting down the pipeline and attacking our energy economy was a dumb arse move. We were a net exporter of oil just a little while ago, for the first and only time in my lifetime. Many of my energy dependent, big customers are winding production down, and starting to mothball equipment. Happened in 2009-10 as well. You can't make steel if NG and electric prices are too high. The president sold out to chyna. They are the only ones that are going to benefit from this move. That's not political at all, that's plain fact. Bad move. Really bad move.

It's listed here with no politics:

All of President Biden’s key executive orders — in one chart

As people and markets around the world adjust to having Joe Biden as U.S. president, a key factor is what the veteran Democratic politician aims to...

www.marketwatch.com

We're re-entering the Paris climate accord as well. You know how they feel about your ''macho trucks'', ''tearing up the earth with trails'', and such.

Hope ya'll like chinese winches and lockers, because the American ones will be shutting down or raising prices soon.

The next 10-15 years are likely going to redefine this hobby - both through environmental/fuel issues and land closures. It's no secret the same people pushing for closing pipelines and "clean" energy are the same pushing to close OHV areas. This is why leave no trace and caring for trails is absolutely critical.

 

[El-Dracho]

If anyone in or near hunt County has some propane to spare I'll buy it for a bit more than it's worth.

That sounds like you are in trouble there?! Maybe propane can be organized for you here via the forum? I could imagine that there are certainly a few OB members near you who might be able to help? Maybe take a look at the member map and reach out to them?

 

[Boostpowered]

That sounds like you are in trouble there?! Maybe propane can be organized for you here via the forum? I could imagine that there are certainly a few OB members near you who might be able to help? Maybe take a look at the member map and reach out to them?

There are only 2 members in my area and I'm fairly sure they don't have power either so we're all in the same boat. I know one has kids so I wouldn't want to take heat from them and the other don't get along too well with me.

 

[leeloo]

There's a key word in this and I'll give you a hint: they're everywhere in the rest of the world and we'll never see them at that scale in the US because people see them as dirty.

The answer is diesel. You're absolutely right that we don't need 400hp but we do need the torque to move a 3 ton pickup. The only way to get that out of a gas engine is either displacement or forced induction - neither of which can match the power per liter of a diesel engine even in larger form.

We're just now seeing diesels break into the compact truck market with GM and Jeep both offering one but they're prohibitively expensive (like a $4-5k USD option which is an over 10% increase) for most and offer no real benefits other than a bit of extra fuel economy that is quickly wiped out by sky high diesel and maintenance costs. Capable hybrids and electrics are coming (from Jeep no less) but, well, those aren't exactly conducive to being out in bumfuck for a few days on end exploring when you're chained to an inadequate charger network strung out across the emptiness.

It's just the constraints we deal with. I'd love to see the Hilux and LC70 and other turbo diesel platforms over here but we won't. Even when fuel prices skyrocket, the most we'll see is hybrid/electric and that's not exactly going to help most of us here.

Don't. get me wrong, I am not saying V8 driving people are Satan's envoys. I am just saying there is a a big pressure for change. All over the world motorist are easy targets.


Try to pick a fight with farmers of the so called "biofuel" which is useless, or cow growers who pollute more than all transport put together by air, land, or sea, plus the insane land and water use - it is political suicide. So you pick on motorists, the "greedy" energy sector and so on..
Than being said, I think hybrids are the future. Diesel now with all the emission controls is not so great and reliable as before. A combination of gas powered + instant torque from an electric motor might be a solution. I know the techn is reliable because I use it in a vehicle every day. It is smaller, but it can be scaled up to pick up level.
If Toyota will sell a hybrid pick up in europe with the same off-road credentials, I will be the first in line to buy it. There is also a lot of potential in overlanding for hybrid vehicles if they give you access to the hybrid battery, that will be 4-5kw minimum in such application. That means you can ditch a lot of weight and save a lot of space
I think there is a RAM hybrid truck for sale in US that has AC /DC outlets powered by the hybrid battery. A fridge and some lights would be nothing for such a system, but with some solar you can probably go to induction cooking/expresso machines level.. with o hassle and investment and wiring and all the trouble we get installing a second battery system...

 

[Boucher]

Luckily I've been working from home my two land pigs love the fuel so I guess my savings in fuel for work will go into my weekend trips

 

[LostWoods]

Don't. get me wrong, I am not saying V8 driving people are Satan's envoys. I am just saying there is a a big pressure for change. All over the world motorist are easy targets.


Try to pick a fight with farmers of the so called "biofuel" which is useless, or cow growers who pollute more than all transport put together by air, land, or sea, plus the insane land and water use - it is political suicide. So you pick on motorists, the "greedy" energy sector and so on..
Than being said, I think hybrids are the future. Diesel now with all the emission controls is not so great and reliable as before. A combination of gas powered + instant torque from an electric motor might be a solution. I know the techn is reliable because I use it in a vehicle every day. It is smaller, but it can be scaled up to pick up level.
If Toyota will sell a hybrid pick up in europe with the same off-road credentials, I will be the first in line to buy it. There is also a lot of potential in overlanding for hybrid vehicles if they give you access to the hybrid battery, that will be 4-5kw minimum in such application. That means you can ditch a lot of weight and save a lot of space
I think there is a RAM hybrid truck for sale in US that has AC /DC outlets powered by the hybrid battery. A fridge and some lights would be nothing for such a system, but with some solar you can probably go to induction cooking/expresso machines level.. with o hassle and investment and wiring and all the trouble we get installing a second battery system...

I'd love to see more PHEV in the segment but that does bring up an additional concern... how do you manage that weight? In the Wrangler it's a 700lb (~315kg) weight penalty which is 60% of the payload of that same vehicle in gas trim for a whopping 25 mile electric range. That's not going to fly for larger and SUVs. A Tacoma with any real capacity to be useful will require a battery in excess of the current payload of any Tacoma which means beefier components and again, more weight. A mid-size PHEV pickup will undoubtedly be pushed into the F-150/1500 light truck category in regards to GVWR.

Electric of some sort is the future, but not until we make massive advancements in energy density per both size and weight. I'm all for investing in them to find the way but the frustration many of us here (in the US) feel with the activists is that banning pipelines and large engines and mandating economy standards doesn't instantly will the technology to replace these pieces into existence. The technology just isn't there yet to replace larger vehicles in specialized applications and as long as SUVs and trucks need to haul and tow, they are going to need the large engines.

 

[KF0APA]

Wont be slowing me down unless gas get's around 6 to 7 dollars. I will just eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches instead of steaks. Life is too short to just stay home and do nothing. Equip and explore. Also, you don't need 95% of the overlanding do dads to actually camp and explore, they are nice, but not necessary. Glad I did my trip of a lifetime in 2018 - 2020.

Any pics, or stories about your trip of a lifetime posted anywhere??

 

[bgenlvtex]

I don't agree is the same thing.
I know you like cheap gas, who does not ? who does not like a nice big V8 ? but is unsustainable long therm. Changes will come. You have big V8 engines in US because the tax system and the gas price allows it. Are they nice to have ? for sure. Can you live without them.. definitely. in the early 90's people were doing the Pamir Highway at 4000 m altitude with 80 HP not turbo diesel pick ups . Now 200 HP and 400nm of torque with the same payload is considered underpowered.. you need to have 400 HP., than your ok...

As it says in the avatar thing, in live Luxembourg, a very small country sandwiched between Germany, France and Belgium borders. It has the cheapest gas in West Europe , but is still about 3 times more expensive than U.S. Also is one of the last places in left in Europe where is still feasible to own cars with big engines, the tax system is more favorable, but even here things are changing..


I have 2 cars, a daily driver - a small hybrid that that does about 50 mpg US and a pick - up , used most as a hobby car, for long distance traveling, holidays, week-ends off roading -camping..this kind of activities, with a 2.4 diesel that does about 21-22 mpg when fully loaded and in Overland type of traveling..(back roads, offroading etc.. ) On occasion when I need to haul some more stuff I use it as well, but rarely. Not a daily driver definitely. Even a full month can go without me even starting the engine, specially since the covid situation.
Before the pandemic I was doing around 22k US miles (this is with both cars in total. )
After the pandemic.. not sure. A lot less. I no longer go to work, only teleworking. Traveling for leisure is still restricted and was restricted almost all last year. Did some short trips only. Last year in April I had trip planned to Morocco. Just the round trip to get there would be 3000 miles, plus another 2000 visiting , do a bit of the Sahar desert and the Atlas mountains... did no happen . For the summer 2020 I had planned to go in Asia to Georgia and Armenia -- another 5-6000 miles just to get there and back.. of course no possible... So I did a lot less miles than planned...

You are simply accepting that high taxes are a good reason for high fuel costs.

I reject that notion categorically. High taxation is a function of inefficient and likely corrupt government.

There is absolutely no shortage of oil, there is in fact a glut. Remember a year and a half ago when oil futures went negative? You probably don't because it wouldn't significantly affect your fuel costs because your fuel costs are predominantly taxes. You accept that, we (I) do not.

The perceived need to shift from carbon based fuels is entirely a scam to shift money, that's it. Appeal to feelings, claim "science" and use both to further fleece the population.

I'm sorry I didn't see that you were from Luxembourg, I for what ever reason thought you were from GB. I ask because I think you lack perspective on how it is here. For example a quick search says the square mileage for Luxembourg is 998. The county I live in predominantly is 593, and the state is 268,000 square miles. If I travel to my second address it is a little over 4 000 miles one way, and the square mileage of that State is 664,000. Just my commute to work exceeds a trip completely across Luxembourg.

You seem to want to attribute "need" in perspective to what you call reality, and that doesn't apply here.

The only reason for fuel prices to be as high as they are in America or anywhere else in the world is a direct result of politics nothing less.

Currently Texas is under winter conditions that are unheard of. Due to political conditions coal generation was shut down, and solar and wind are mandated. Well, guess what isn't producing any power resulting in rolling black outs in Texas during those historical conditions? That's right, the wind and solar, so Texas is without 30% of their generation capacity and people are freezing their ass off.

I keep waiting to hear from one of my leftist "friends" needing help because they have no heat their plumbing is burst and they have no way to get to the store because their greenweanie mobile can't go. I'm going to tell them to go stare into the mirror and then call Greta Thunberg, if she isn't having a seizure from Fetal Alcohol Syndrome she might care, but I won't.

 

[bgenlvtex]

It's in negative temps in texas. The power has been out all night woke up to 27° in my house the water in my toilet is frozen solid , there is no propane to be found for miles and miles thanks to govonor Abbott, he ordered rolling blackout for no reason and didn't think to increase the lp supplies so It kind-of is gonna be political especially when people die from exposure in their own home due to his ignorance. This one event is gonna turn texas blue in the next election just to get rid of wheels.

If anyone in or near hunt County has some propane to spare I'll buy it for a bit more than it's worth.

If I had any I'd give it to you and deliver it, but I don't, sorry

 

[Alanymarce]

USD 1.86 per US Gallon - that would be nice. On the assumption made in the question we would presumably double our travel if fuel price dropped to this level... In fact, we consider fuel an inelastic commodity - we buy what we need to travel, and pay whatever the price happens to be - high in Europe, medium in much of South America, Africa, and Canada, cheap in the USA.

Out of interest, of the 166 countries surveyed by statisticstimes.com there are 135 countries with petrol/gas prices higher than those in the USA.