When does cost of a vehicle to build matter to you?

[TJDon]

Little history of myself. I’ve been an automotive technician all of my 25+ career years. I have the capability of buying a diamond in the rough and making it useful to my needs. But now in my “older years”, I’d rather be up fitting and camping than spending weekends repairing or fixing.
Reliability and comfort along with functionality might be becoming more important. I’ve had many off-road rigs. From rock crawler Toyota’s, Jeep’s and even a Suzuki Samurai.
In the last couple years I’ve grown away from huge articulation and ultra low gear range mobbing to driving long distances and finding the middle of silence and relaxation.
I started by building a 2002 Jeep TJ to overland with and found VERY quickly that it’s just too small for my needs. Now I have a high mileage 1999 Grand Cherokee which has much more room and driving comfort for solo or family trips. But reliability is a constant concern. I can keep dumping more money and time into it. But when does someone finally scream UNCLE!?!?

I’m a Jeep guy at heart. I liked the JK and compared to what I’ve had, the ride is nice.
I really like the JL, but the Gladiator!!! ❤Multi function, comfort and more importantly....new reliability (comparatively to what I’ve owned/own)
But the price!!! . Vehicle payment vs. cost of repairs?
So that leads to my original question. When does the price of a newer vehicle not matter for what we do and what we want from it?

 

[TJDon]

Also, I get it’s mostly about what we can afford to have or don’t mind pintriping with tree limbs

 

[CR-Venturer]

One word: Honda.

In all seriousness, though, yeah there comes a point where the vehicle is just getting so long in the tooth that it's having so many costly problems that you might as well sell or scrap it and buy something newer that has a solid track record of reliability. I plan to spend some money on my rig yet, but eventually there may come a point where the repairs are just too much. Perhaps if I blew the engine and or tranny, but even then, I might just buy another engine and keep er going.

I think the big question is, is it worth it to you? Is there another, newer vehicle that you like as much as your current one that will be more economical in the long run than a beat up junker that's falling apart. If not, maybe keep fixing the old girl. If yes, then there comes a point where you should cut your losses and move on to something newer and more reliable.

 

[JDGreens]

I am in the same situation. I currently own a Jeep Cherokee XJ. It has been pretty reliable but as I up--grade it for a better ride I find the cost and the time to be some what more inhibiting my goal of getting out to explore. Sure it has been fun working on it, but I think I would rather spend that time and $$$$ in the back country.

I would like to trade up too a nice gently used JKU for my net vehicle. With the introduction of both the JLU and the Gladiator there has been some great deals to be had on the JKU Rubicon. which I think would be good bang for the bucks you would have to shell out.

 

[MOAK]

Ok, great question. I don’t pretend to have all the answers, only my experience. Circa 1976 I bought my first Toyota Landcruiser. Being very young and very stupid I proceeded to beat the hell out of it. I had no clue what a PM was, let alone servicing it on a regular basis, but it just kept going until my ex wife totaled it... Fast forward 20 years and I bought a Jeep TJ, then a Rubicon in 04. Around 05 or so I had plenty of vacation time built up and we began taking long range trips. I did a lot of upgrades on the Rubi in a futile attempt to make it Cruiser-Like, to no avail. Once I realized what I was trying to do, I bought an 80 series Landcruiser and sold the Jeep. You mentioned the gladiator, Jeep needs to pull their heads outta their butts.. not only do they look clumsy, (the tail lamps alone would be ripped off in short order) their reliability is suspect. All that for right around 50k? You could easily buy an 80 or 100 series Landcruiser for under 10k and pay to have a frame off restoration and a brand new 2.5 Cummins installed for about 25k, have 10 times the vehicle of anything Chrysler builds, and still be under 40k. Or, do like I did, find a rust free 80 or 100 series that has 150 to 200,000 miles on it for 10-15k , drive it, maintain it and be a very happy camper for the next 200 to 300k miles. I won’t go into a lot of the PM stuff but know that pulling the head and replacing worn valve stem seals is about as costly as it ever gets. I carry a small tool bag, extra relays and fuses and have never broken down anywhere ever. Hey, I get where you are coming from, I had to step up and make a decision. It’s a shame that Jeep just doesn’t get it or I’d still be driving them. For what they are they are great vehicles for looking cool and weekend warriors, but for long range reliability over the course of decades? Forget about em and step up. We only go around once.. peace-out and good luck

 

[grubworm]

When does the price of a newer vehicle not matter for what we do and what we want from it?

I can easily justify a new vehicle...the last time I bought a used vehicle I was 21.
I love traveling with my wife and sharing those experiences...they are truly "priceless". However, priceless experiences DO come at a cost! If you are looking at a mid $40K vehicle, thats going to be an $800 month note. If its a daily driver, you will have a vehicle anyway. Generally speaking, you will have a lesser vehicle with a lesser note and usually more repair costs. You're going to pay one way or another. At least with a new vehicle, you are pretty much guaranteed no extra expenses for the next 3 years of warranty. So you flat line at your $800 month note. The older the vehicle the lesser the note and the more the repair costs, which are unknown. Transmission goes out tomorrow, how much is that? Then there is having to modify trips you want to take because you are limiting yourself to the reliability level of your vehicle. What is it worth to not have to do that? Even if your current vehicle is paid off but averaging $300-400 a month in repairs (a/c goes out, replace belt hoses, replace brakes, starter goes out, etc). My Dodge Ram was paid off and way past warranty when the injectors went out...$4500 repair bill. Well, for an extra $15 a day, you just made up the difference to have a new vehicle. That's the price of 2 caramel lattes at Starbucks.
BAM! New vehicle justified!! :)

My logic is pretty sound...even the most combative of wives can't argue against it!

 

[MOAK]

I can easily justify a new vehicle...the last time I bought a used vehicle I was 21.
I love traveling with my wife and sharing those experiences...they are truly "priceless". However, priceless experiences DO come at a cost! If you are looking at a mid $40K vehicle, thats going to be an $800 month note. If its a daily driver, you will have a vehicle anyway. Generally speaking, you will have a lesser vehicle with a lesser note and usually more repair costs. You're going to pay one way or another. At least with a new vehicle, you are pretty much guaranteed no extra expenses for the next 3 years of warranty. So you flat line at your $800 month note. The older the vehicle the lesser the note and the more the repair costs, which are unknown. Transmission goes out tomorrow, how much is that? Then there is having to modify trips you want to take because you are limiting yourself to the reliability level of your vehicle. What is it worth to not have to do that? Even if your current vehicle is paid off but averaging $300-400 a month in repairs (a/c goes out, replace belt hoses, replace brakes, starter goes out, etc). Well, for an extra $15 a day, you just made up the difference to have a new vehicle. That's the price of 2 caramel lattes at Starbucks.
BAM! New vehicle justified!! :)

Unless you drive a Toyota.. over the past 7 years I have spent in PM repairs, ( heater core, radiator, valve stem seals, front and rear main seals, oil pump seal, power steering pumps ) less than 5,000 dollars, the cost of vehicle was 10k, regular maintenance doesn’t count as new vehicles need regular maintenance.. that works out to 178 a month. And those pm repairs won’t need to be done for another 150k miles , so figure conservatively another 2 years on top of the 7, that’s less than 128 per month.. I could break it down to cost per mile if you like. Roughly a penny a mile.. to top all this off I’ve been offered 18k for the vehicle on two different occasions. It will only increase in value as time goes on. Spend your money however you want but I’m too old to be enriching anyone’s life except my own.

 

[grubworm]

Unless you drive a Toyota.. over the past 7 years I have spent in PM repairs, ( heater coil, valve stem seals, front and rear main seals, oil pump seal) less than 5,000 dollars, cost of vehicle, 10k, regular maintenance doesn’t count as new vehicles need regular maintenance.. that works out to 178 a month. And those pm repairs won’t need to be done for another 150k miles or so figure conservatively another 2 years on top of the 7, that’s less than 128 per month.. I could break it down to cost per mile if you like. Roughly a penny a mile..

You're right. Get the new Toyota now and drive it. When its paid off, drive it more and since you don't have the $800 note anymore, put $300-400 of that aside in a separate account. In a few years, trade in the vehicle, gets its value, take the money you set aside and add it to the trade in and now you are in another NEW vehicle at a very low note. Repeat that and stay in a new vehicle from now on for less than people are paying for a used vehicle.

The last used vehicle I had was a 1985 Toyota SR5, great truck. Had it shipped to Hawaii when I was stationed there and used it to explore and haul dive gear all over the island. I drove it for over 6 yrs and still got over half of what I paid for it on trade in. That was the move that catapulted me into buying new and staying new.

 

[Pion]

I’m a Jeep guy at heart. I liked the JK and compared to what I’ve had, the ride is nice.
I really like the JL, but the Gladiator!!! ❤Multi function, comfort and more importantly....new reliability (comparatively to what I’ve owned/own)
But the price!!! . Vehicle payment vs. cost of repairs?
So that leads to my original question. When does the price of a newer vehicle not matter for what we do and what we want from it?

From the picture below you'll know I'm biased, but like you it wasn't so much about if I could turn an inexpensive 4x4 into what I wanted, but if I wanted to spend my time doing that. At this point in my life I would rather spend my time adventuring around than doing necessary upgrades/repairs. There is also the fringe benefits of the tech that comes with a modern vehicle - which is purely opinion based, but in my case I like adaptive cruise control and all that.

 

[Anak]

I am in the same boat as MOAK. I would much rather invest in an older vehicle which can be made more reliable than a new vehicle.

I am substantially more comfortable with my XJ than I would be with a new JL. I don't care for these new computer systems that go into failure modes that require a tow trip to the dealer in order to get them operational again. That is not acceptable for a vehicle that goes well off the paved path. Tow trucks aren't exactly cheap out in the middle of nowhere, and dealerships tend to be a long way from there.

It probably helps that I like my vehicles simple. I don't even want power windows/power locks, let alone these fancy dash built-in navigation things. In my experience more features just means more things to break. I don't need those.

And if you stick with simple vehicles there are really only so many things to maintain, and it is much easier to check things for wear.

I get it that some folks don't have the skills or the aptitude. That situation makes their decision for them. For myself, I have only once in my life purchased a new vehicle, and I have no intention to ever do so again.

 

[GatorDoc]

I was going to write a big, long post about how there are lots of variables, and it depends on how well the older vehicle has been taken care of, whether you are full time or a weekend warrior, your finances, etc... but ultimately it boils down to whether you value your money more than your time.

If you have the resources, by all means buy new(ish), fire away with the money cannon, and get out and use it as fast/as much as possible while leaving the work to others. This isn't my approach, because I'm debt averse and actually like wrenching, but it does work for lots of people. The main drawback (aside from the presumed debt) is if your rig is bought, not built you might have a harder time with bush mechanic fixes, since you haven't been elbow deep in your rig on the regular.

I drive older vehicles personally, and they have treated me well (even the ones that don't say TOYOTA anywhere on them) because I've treated them well over the years. Keeping up on PM can get expensive, but in my experience the month-to-month cost of maintenance is FAR less than the cost of a new car note. Sure, you might have a major breakdown (transmission, A/C, Injectors, etc...) from time to time, but the mean time between failures on major systems for most vehicles is measured in hundreds of thousands of miles, or decades, for the most part. Fix it right the first time with OEM or better components and you'll get another 200k out of it before you need to do it again. Paying 3 grand for a new transmission every 200k miles (15 years in my case) is a lot more affordable than almost a grand a month between the payment an insurance for a brand new 4x4.

Taking out a loan for a car is just about the most idiotic financial decision that you can make, especially when used vehicles can be had for far less, even if they don't get the same attention on the 'gram. It took me a lot longer than it should have to learn this lesson; unless it's something like a house or other investment, if you can't pay cash for something you want, you cannot afford it.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

For you as an individual who spends five days a week under the hood of someone else's vehicle I would say buy that new rig and enjoy your hobby.
For me the newness, or so called reliability matters not. Working on and building the rig is as much fun to me as getting out into OB world. Any part of OB is my escape from the crappy work world. It's the combination of all parts of OB that holds my interest.

 

[MazeVX]

If you can afford it, buy as new as possible. No matter how cool it may be to build something old, it stays old and you need to constantly take care of it. Most newer rigs are so capable in some of their stock forms that, honestly, no technical modification is needed.

 

[Billiebob]

n the last couple years I’ve grown away from huge articulation and ultra low gear range mobbing to driving long distances and finding the middle of silence and relaxation.

Exactly where I am too. The past 5 years have beenreturning my TJR to stock.

$$$ how much is too much?

Since 1974 all my vehicles have been used. I look at the depreciation of any new vehicle and I spend way less than that on maintenance of an older vehicle. Plus purchase price is one third of a new vehicle. I drove an '87 YJ for 10 years. Bought it for $4500, sold it for $3000. And spent a total of $9,000 maintaining it which included tires, oil changes, a lift and a new engine. In 10 years I put on 200K miles. So I averaged 1500 depreciation plus 9,000 maintenance over 10 years, about $1K a year. Depreciation alone on any new vehicle is at least triple that.

My wifes 2010 Subaru cost $33K. She sold it 5 years later for $13K, She lost $4K a year, plus all the maintenance.

I paid $13,800 for my TJR 8 years ago. Pretty sure it'll sell for over $10,000 today. And i drive it 25K miles a year. A third of that towing a trailer. I have not added up the maintenance reciepts but I'd bet I average $2,000 a year, which included a new engine last year. Still way less than buying something new.

I also never do any mechanical maintenance myself. I take it to a trusted shop/mechanic twice a year for everything including oil changes. He checks everything during those visits and we fix anything out of spec, steering, driveline, electrical.... In 40 years, I have only once been stranded and needed a tow when the YJ alternator quit. IF I had watched the volts gauge, I could have had that fixed before I got stranded.

Anytime I read about guys breaking down and asking "How do I fix this?" I laugh. Some guys do things which break parts and they accept doing a trail repair, part of the days enjoyment. But those guys who say I do my own oil changes every 3000 miles and think they save money..... wow.... a mechanic, as opposed to a Quick Lube Shop.... does so much more than just change the oil.

If I were spending as much as a new vehicle cost..... I'd still buy used.... and support my local shop.

 

[bmwguru]

Exactly where I am too. The past 5 years have beenreturning my TJR to stock.

$$$ how much is too much?

Since 1974 all my vehicles have been used. I look at the depreciation of any new vehicle and I spend way less than that on maintenance of an older vehicle. Plus purchase price is one third of a new vehicle. I drove an '87 YJ for 10 years. Bought it for $4500, sold it for $3000. And spent a total of $9,000 maintaining it which included tires, oil changes, a lift and a new engine. In 10 years I put on 200K miles. So I averaged 1500 depreciation plus 9,000 maintenance over 10 years, about $1K a year. Depreciation alone on any new vehicle is at least triple that.

My wifes 2010 Subaru cost $33K. She sold it 5 years later for $13K, She lost $4K a year, plus all the maintenance.

I paid $13,800 for my TJR 8 years ago. Pretty sure it'll sell for over $10,000 today. And i drive it 25K miles a year. A third of that towing a trailer. I have not added up the maintenance reciepts but I'd bet I average $2,000 a year, which included a new engine last year. Still way less than buying something new.

I also never do any mechanical maintenance myself. I take it to a trusted shop/mechanic twice a year for everything including oil changes. He checks everything during those visits and we fix anything out of spec, steering, driveline, electrical.... In 40 years, I have only once been stranded and needed a tow when the YJ alternator quit. IF I had watched the volts gauge, I could have had that fixed before I got stranded.

Anytime I read about guys breaking down and asking "How do I fix this?" I laugh. Some guys do things which break parts and they accept doing a trail repair, part of the days enjoyment. But those guys who say I do my own oil changes every 3000 miles and think they save money..... wow.... a mechanic, as opposed to a Quick Lube Shop.... does so much more than just change the oil.

If I were spending as much as a new vehicle cost..... I'd still buy used.... and support my local shop.

Well said sir. Thank you for giving automotive technicians the respect they deserve. People think we are just dumb hack mechanics. I am far from that.

 

[TJDon]

All you guys are awesome and bring up great points

I think like most of you, I love all kinds of vehicles. When I’m on a trail and see a vintage rig, it gives me a huge smile to see someone keeping a old girl looking and working good.
Like a lot of you said- monthly note vs monthly repair costs? Trust me, I’ve been doing repairs for years. Sometimes because I have too. Raising a family isn’t cheap especially in California but just as much reason because I enjoyed it.

It’s definitely something to think about deciding if I want another vehicle payment. And to decide how new of a used vehicle I would want and which one to fit my all around needs

 

[MOAK]

If you can afford it, buy as new as possible. No matter how cool it may be to build something old, it stays old and you need to constantly take care of it. Most newer rigs are so capable in some of their stock forms that, honestly, no technical modification is needed.

Simply not true—new rigs require the same maintenance as a old rig. Parts on new rigs begin to fail when they are just out of warranty, unless you are suggesting that one should always buy a new vehicle as soon as their current vehicle is out of warranty..

 

[grubworm]

If you can afford it, buy as new as possible. No matter how cool it may be to build something old, it stays old and you need to constantly take care of it. Most newer rigs are so capable in some of their stock forms that, honestly, no technical modification is needed.

that's been my experience

 

[MOAK]

Here’s the thing TJDon, it all depends on how much money one chooses to spend for vehicles over the course of their lifetime.. very much like boots, 300 for a pair of Asolos or Redwings, that’ll last for 10 years and more, or 100 for a pair that will last for 2 years or less— more power to those guys that purchase a new vehicle every 5 years and kit it out, keeps the economy rolling ..

 

[TJDon]

Here’s the thing TJDon, it all depends on how much money one chooses to spend for vehicles over the course of their lifetime.. very much like boots, 300 for a pair of Asolos or Redwings, that’ll last for 10 years and more, or 100 for a pair that will last for 2 years or less— more power to those guys that purchase a new vehicle every 5 years and kit it out, keeps the economy rolling ..

I totally get it, I’ve gone without new fancy stuff for a loooong time.
From my off-roading history, I’ve always had quite a few people I’ve gone rock crawling with (rubicon, fordyce and others) that it was expected for someone to break and one of the crew including myself had the capability to repair or carry the parts to fix on the trail. But fast forward to today and myself now going in the middle of nowhere and no cell service for miles is my gist of my question. It’s more likely a rig with 100-200k miles is more likely for something to fail regardless. Shoot, just this weekend my 400 mile round trip to Carson River in Gardnerville I developed a suspension clunk (sway bar bushings) and a check engine light (o2 sensor)
The time before that, I didn’t make it 40 miles from home and the engine started overheating.
I’ve got 197k on my WJ and I’m constantly concerned what’s next?! Like I said, I’ve been a FCA technician for 25 years and I know how to fix my rig no problem.....when I have access to all my tools and parts stores.