What to do About "Idiots" on Our Trails?

[Del Albright]

Let's say you see some numb-nuts (idiots) on the trails, leaving trash, getting off trail, driving on bushes/vegetation, or just being blatantly WRONG. What do you do?

After some discussion and posts, I will collect our thoughts and later put them BACK in this post for future reference.

So, you're out there; you see this bad, wrong behavior; what do you do? Or what do you suggest folks do?
Del

 

[AZBubs]

Take pics. License plates and all. Low key and low risk. Turn in to authority that oversees land. State, BLM, NPS, County etc...


Sent from my iPhone using OB Talk

 

[Road]

Let's say you see some numb-nuts (idiots) on the trails, leaving trash, getting off trail, driving on bushes/vegetation, or just being blatantly WRONG. What do you do?

After some discussion and posts, I will collect our thoughts and later put them BACK in this post for future reference.

So, you're out there; you see this bad, wrong behavior; what do you do? Or what do you suggest folks do?
Del

I think my first inclination would be to not be confrontational, but to lead by example, model better behavior than I think they exhibit, and even quietly clean up their mess so they see it being done. Not an in-your-face thing, at all, nor any name-calling or shaming, just doing it better.

Road


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[ArkansasDon]

our society is full of crazy's. It seems as the years go by more of society give's a rat's hoot about anything or one. If I saw some one liter or driving were they shouldn't then I would write the plate number & photo them during the act & turn them in.

 

[ru108]

With over 20 years working in law enforcement (10 of that in Western Wyoming in an area surrounded by NF), I'll chime in with what I recommended back in my patrol days to people when asked or dispatched to a call about litter, property damage, trespassing, etc on public or private land.

As safely as possible (read non-confrontational), get pics/video of vehicles AND plates, along with occupants, especially the driver/s. If you can't get electronic evidence safely, try to at least get good vehicle and person descriptions WITH plate info and last known area/direction of travel. Wait till you're sure they've left the area and then get pics/videos of the trash and/or damage. Try to pick up as much as possible and get it out of there asap. Before leaving the area, try to contact law enforcement (NPS, USFS, BLM, state Park Police or County Sheriff) responsible for the area and turn your info over to them. If it is federal land, the Sheriff's Office may or may not be able to do anything, but they should at least turn the info over to the proper federal or state LE for followup.

Lastly, I'd suggest providing your contact info AND a written statement when you file your complaint. It'll help if an arrest is made or summons issued. These MAY keep you from being subpoenaed if it goes to trial or at least give you the option of providing a deposition if you live out of the area. I realize that going to court is a hassle and some may consider it a safety risk with all the crazies out there nowadays, but if you ARE subpoenaed, PLEASE try to go to court. There are a surprising number of jurisdictions where the DA/County Attorney will throw out the case if a witness refuses to testify without sufficient grounds. Remember, THEY weren't there. YOU were.

 

[Corrie]

With over 20 years working in law enforcement (10 of that in Western Wyoming in an area surrounded by NF), I'll chime in with what I recommended back in my patrol days to people when asked or dispatched to a call about litter, property damage, trespassing, etc on public or private land.

As safely as possible (read non-confrontational), get pics/video of vehicles AND plates, along with occupants, especially the driver/s. If you can't get electronic evidence safely, try to at least get good vehicle and person descriptions WITH plate info and last known area/direction of travel. Wait till you're sure they've left the area and then get pics/videos of the trash and/or damage. Try to pick up as much as possible and get it out of there asap. Before leaving the area, try to contact law enforcement (NPS, USFS, BLM, state Park Police or County Sheriff) responsible for the area and turn your info over to them. If it is federal land, the Sheriff's Office may or may not be able to do anything, but they should at least turn the info over to the proper federal or state LE for followup.

Lastly, I'd suggest providing your contact info AND a written statement when you file your complaint. It'll help if an arrest is made or summons issued. These MAY keep you from being subpoenaed if it goes to trial or at least give you the option of providing a deposition if you live out of the area. I realize that going to court is a hassle and some may consider it a safety risk with all the crazies out there nowadays, but if you ARE subpoenaed, PLEASE try to go to court. There are a surprising number of jurisdictions where the DA/County Attorney will throw out the case if a witness refuses to testify without sufficient grounds. Remember, THEY weren't there. YOU were.

Thanks for taking the time to write this out. It's a good debrief on what the priority is when you run into this type of situation.

Because it's not an 'if' you'll run into it. It's a 'when'.

 

[ru108]

No problem at all, @Corrie. If I was able to help even one person that was unsure of how to handle this kind of situation, the couple of minutes typing that was well worth it for me. We all know it may unfortunately only take one time being trashed for an area to be closed to motorized travel (or any activities for that matter) and the "whens" are becoming more prevalent. Unfortunately, I've seen it first hand.

 

[Overland A Far]

Our area will be filled with weekend warriors the long weekend in May (18-21) and a lot of grad parties. You wouldn't believe the stuff we have picked up over the years! Our authorities are taxed on that weekend and as a forestry professional we get signed on as Forest Guardians for the summer - giving us an observe and report role. We collect details as mentioned above, pictures and provide a friendly reminder for them to clean up. Usually just knowing we have the evidence works well and we make it very clear we are in radio and cell communication as we are talking to them (Oh I'm just texting in a picture! or chat with another co-worker on the two-way as you go up to talk to them). We can usually pick one or two from the group that show reason and logic and focus our discussion with them. So far no problems.

 

[soonersfan]

I don't have a blanket answer for this. Littering is a no brainer to me. Everyone should know better. The getting off the trail etc. is a different thing altogether. I think there are a lot people out there who genuinely don't know better.

I would approach it on a case by case basis. My first inclination would be to just strike up a conversation with the folks. From there I would probably try to discern if their behavior was due to ignorance or disregard. In the case of ignorance, I may try to offer a friendly education. In the case of total disregard, I'd probably keep my mouth shut rather than offer a lecture. I would also give a heads up with some detailed info to the responsible LE agency.

 

[Road]

Our area will be filled with weekend warriors the long weekend in May (18-21) and a lot of grad parties. You wouldn't believe the stuff we have picked up over the years! Our authorities are taxed on that weekend and as a forestry professional we get signed on as Forest Guardians for the summer - giving us an observe and report role. We collect details as mentioned above, pictures and provide a friendly reminder for them to clean up. Usually just knowing we have the evidence works well and we make it very clear we are in radio and cell communication as we are talking to them (Oh I'm just texting in a picture! or chat with another co-worker on the two-way as you go up to talk to them). We can usually pick one or two from the group that show reason and logic and focus our discussion with them. So far no problems.

Observe and report role. I like that. I like the "make it clear we are in radio and cell communications as we are talking to them" too. Easier perhaps if wearing a uniform of sorts or obviously authority/staff/forest guardians.

 

[Road]

I don't have a blanket answer for this. Littering is a no brainer to me. Everyone should know better. The getting off the trail etc. is a different thing altogether. I think there are a lot people out there who genuinely don't know better.

I would approach it on a case by case basis. My first inclination would be to just strike up a conversation with the folks. From there I would probably try to discern if their behavior was due to ignorance or disregard. In the case of ignorance, I may try to offer a friendly education. In the case of total disregard, I'd probably keep my mouth shut rather than offer a lecture. I would also give a heads up with some detailed info to the responsible LE agency.

Good approach, case by case, and from what I know of you on the forums, you seem like a fellow who could discern the difference between ignorance or disregard.

I'm learning a lot from the variety of answers. Great exercise.

 

[1Louder]

Drove by a large group of camp last Friday. Sadly on Sunday when we made our exit I saw that these disgusting pigs left 100% of their trash everywhere. They even had kids in their group. Great people! I was so outraged we stopped and picked everything up. It filled 4 full trash bags. They also left a card table. I also hauled it out. I drove with it for over 100 miles until I found a national forest dumpster.

Just useless human beings. I will be sending pictures to the forest service in case they talked to them prior to leaving the spot looking like a landfill. Unlikely.

Bottom line: Many Many Many people suck. Those that don't have to babysit these idiots and pick up the slack. They never will. They are useless. Do not confront people like this. As others have mentioned observe and report. It is not your job to be a hero, a teacher, a lesson giver. You never know what might happen.

 

[slomatt]

Unfortunately I've run into this exact situation a few times. In each case you have to make a judgement call on whether it is a good idea approach the group or not. In some situations people just don't know any better and there is a lot of value in talking to them, in other cases they are jerks who don't want to be "told what to do".

I find that if you approach people and talk to them politely and as a fellow trail user they'll often at least stop and listen. Being confrontational does not help. I try to be brief and simply stress that their actions are putting the trail at risk for all of us. The common excuse I've heard is "everybody else is doing it".

If there is trash I try to pick it up and pack it out.

If they are causing environmental damage I'll try to get some pictures of their rigs. The problem is then what to do with those pictures... Sometimes you can simply find out what club the people are members of and pass on the information to that club. If the resource damage is reasonably significant then I personally think it is appropriate to report them to the NFS/BLM/etc and let them know where the damage happened so they can do repairs and block off new side trails if needed.

Luckily the vast majority of trail users know how to be responsible and this is a rare issue, but as with most things a few bad eggs can cause problems for everybody. Given that many OB users are new to offroading I think a major focus of this website should be teaching people how to respect the trail and other trail users.

 

[ru108]

@slomatt said, "Given that many OB users are new to offroading I think a major focus of this website should be teaching people how to respect the trail and other trail users."

This particular sentence rings true. It might be worthwhile to add a sticky somewhere at or near the top of the "New Members Start Here!" section with a detailed synopsis of this thread once we (thread contributors), the moderators and/or @Michael and @Corrie come to a final consensus about what fits best with the goals and mission statement of the site and its membership.

While I'm new to the board, but not to offroading, reading through the site since I joined has been a great refresher since "life happened" and kept me out of the woods for the last several years. I think a tutorial of expected conduct for new members and a refresher for old hands in a prominent spot on the board would be great!

 

[Kent R]

With over 20 years working in law enforcement (10 of that in Western Wyoming in an area surrounded by NF), I'll chime in with what I recommended back in my patrol days to people when asked or dispatched to a call about litter, property damage, trespassing, etc on public or private land.

As safely as possible (read non-confrontational), get pics/video of vehicles AND plates, along with occupants, especially the driver/s. If you can't get electronic evidence safely, try to at least get good vehicle and person descriptions WITH plate info and last known area/direction of travel. Wait till you're sure they've left the area and then get pics/videos of the trash and/or damage. Try to pick up as much as possible and get it out of there asap. Before leaving the area, try to contact law enforcement (NPS, USFS, BLM, state Park Police or County Sheriff) responsible for the area and turn your info over to them. If it is federal land, the Sheriff's Office may or may not be able to do anything, but they should at least turn the info over to the proper federal or state LE for followup.

Lastly, I'd suggest providing your contact info AND a written statement when you file your complaint. It'll help if an arrest is made or summons issued. These MAY keep you from being subpoenaed if it goes to trial or at least give you the option of providing a deposition if you live out of the area. I realize that going to court is a hassle and some may consider it a safety risk with all the crazies out there nowadays, but if you ARE subpoenaed, PLEASE try to go to court. There are a surprising number of jurisdictions where the DA/County Attorney will throw out the case if a witness refuses to testify without sufficient grounds. Remember, THEY weren't there. YOU were.

Great advice!! If you don't mind can I use some of this and pass it on to our local meet-up groups. We have a volunteer meeting this month with the El Dorado NF and one of the topics is a presentation from the LEO's about this very issue.

 

[Road]

@slomatt said, "Given that many OB users are new to offroading I think a major focus of this website should be teaching people how to respect the trail and other trail users."

This particular sentence rings true. It might be worthwhile to add a sticky somewhere at or near the top of the "New Members Start Here!" section with a detailed synopsis of this thread once we (thread contributors), the moderators and/or @Michael and @Corrie come to a final consensus about what fits best with the goals and mission statement of the site and its membership.

While I'm new to the board, but not to offroading, reading through the site since I joined has been a great refresher since "life happened" and has kept me out of the woods for the last several years. I think a tutorial of expected conduct for new members and a refresher for old hands in a prominent spot on the board would be great!

I couldn't agree more with @slomatt's feelings about the potential Overland Bound has in helping members learn more about land use issues and responsible recreation.

As a direct result of requests from @slomatt, @Anchor Mtn, @WCO_Ryan, @KÜHN, @Kent R, myself and others, OLB created the forum that this thread and section are part of, the Land Use - Leave It Better Than You Found It forums.

It includes sub-forums for Local Trail Cleanup Events - Trail Guardian, Local Land Use Information and News, and Local, National, International Organizations:



Poke around in there, spend a bit of time and I'll bet you will find other ways to become more involved.

@Del Albright, who created this thread and terrific exercise, wrote in his post that he will collect our thoughts and later put them BACK in this post for future reference. Then we'll ask if he would like to copy that to a post in the New Members Start Here section. We'll make sure it is well seen and sticks around, believe me.

This and other threads on low-impact land use and responsible recreation are an important part of Overland Bound and the core principles members agree to when joining.

This is who we are. This is what we do.

Welcome to the Overland Bound forums. Glad to have you and your experience here!

Road



.

 

[ru108]

Great advice!! If you don't mind can I use some of this and pass it on to our local meet-up groups. We have a volunteer meeting this month with the El Dorado NF and one of the topics is a presentation from the LEO's about this very issue.

@Kent R , I don't mind at all. There may be more or different info that your local LEO's suggest that is agency specific, so feel free to add or subtract as appropriate. My suggestions were merely what I found worked best in my experiences to achieve the desired results.

 

[Kent R]

@Kent R , I don't mind at all. There may be more or different info that your local LEO's suggest that is agency specific, so feel free to add or subtract as appropriate. My suggestions were merely what I found worked best in my experiences to achieve the desired results.

Your experiences are worth more than you can imagine, I'm a retired fire guy so I see the world different from you LEO's and what you have to offer can potentially be a life saver. Please keep the suggestions coming.

 

[ru108]

Your experiences are worth more than you can imagine, I'm a retired fire guy so I see the world different from you LEO's and what you have to offer can potentially be a life saver. Please keep the suggestions coming.

Contrary to the seemingly general consensus nowadays that cops are a**holes, I'm "old school". I'd much rather mediate and educate than possibly mess up somebody's life by bringing criminal charges against them if I can. I'll go out of my way to talk it out with you on a first offense, especially if it's because of ignorance, but if I find out it was intentional, you lied to me or it's not the first time, then all bets are off. Generates less paperwork that way, lol.

 

[Del Albright]

With over 20 years working in law enforcement (10 of that in Western Wyoming in an area surrounded by NF), I'll chime in with what I recommended back in my patrol days to people when asked or dispatched to a call about litter, property damage, trespassing, etc on public or private land.

As safely as possible (read non-confrontational), get pics/video of vehicles AND plates, along with occupants, especially the driver/s. If you can't get electronic evidence safely, try to at least get good vehicle and person descriptions WITH plate info and last known area/direction of travel. Wait till you're sure they've left the area and then get pics/videos of the trash and/or damage. Try to pick up as much as possible and get it out of there asap. Before leaving the area, try to contact law enforcement (NPS, USFS, BLM, state Park Police or County Sheriff) responsible for the area and turn your info over to them. If it is federal land, the Sheriff's Office may or may not be able to do anything, but they should at least turn the info over to the proper federal or state LE for followup.

Lastly, I'd suggest providing your contact info AND a written statement when you file your complaint. It'll help if an arrest is made or summons issued. These MAY keep you from being subpoenaed if it goes to trial or at least give you the option of providing a deposition if you live out of the area. I realize that going to court is a hassle and some may consider it a safety risk with all the crazies out there nowadays, but if you ARE subpoenaed, PLEASE try to go to court. There are a surprising number of jurisdictions where the DA/County Attorney will throw out the case if a witness refuses to testify without sufficient grounds. Remember, THEY weren't there. YOU were.

For sure on all of this...I experienced this during the early days of Friends of the Rubicon where folks did NOT have pics of the culprit; or were not able to ID them. It failed in court. You MUST see and ID the driver if it's vehicle related. And yes, it means going to court -- which might mean a day off work. But justice requires all of us at some point to do our part. Thanks.