Vehicle Opinions

[rgallant]

@DintDobbs LR have been / are used a fleet vehicles in places other than North America - but they were largely diesel defenders that pretty much going out of service due to age. As to reliability my 04 Discovery is perfectly reliable, if somewhat maintenance heavy at 19 years as bits are wearing out.

And lets face it every evil villain has a fleet of Black Range Rovers on hand

 

[DintDobbs]

@MOAK Every generation of vehicles has its up sides and down sides. My 2nd-gen Explorers have lasted 20+ years with minimal maintenance, one ate a starter and both ate a coil pack, but (excluding mods on the Sport) have otherwise needed only routine maintenance, mechanically. They're cheap, easy to find, and easy to work on. They do have a lot of unnecessary features and creature comforts, but they're the vehicle that brought luxury to utility and replaced the station wagon.

@Dysan, I'm talking to you, too - consider a 2nd-gen Explorer or 1st-gen Durango. They are both very reliable overall, and a Durango can easily tow 7000 pounds. Not sure about the Durangos but I know of several Explorers in decent overall shape kicking around the East Coast with upwards of 300k and no signs of slowing down. One has 600k and is still rolling, no major problems yet. Hard not to recommend one, but understand that most people have neglected maintenance on them, so you might have to clean up a lot on the get-go.

Durangos tend to be fairly well abused too, but they are solid work trucks, and quite decently equipped at that, following the Explorer's lead.

@rgallant Land Rovers and Toyota Land Cruisers or Hiluxes are the go-to vehicles anywhere you can't get Jeeps. I'd rock a square body Hilux if I could get a full double cab, but tough luck bringing one into the States...

 

[genocache]

I see you're in Boulder Creek, was that the cement plant out on the coast above Santa Cruz you worked at?

-TJ

Yes, Davenport. For 24.5 years then they closed. No cement plant in Moss Landing. I see you are in Palo Alto, I was just there Tues at the VA.

 

[socal66]

If you could consider an extended cab truck that will seat 5 with a bed shell that would open up many more options to choose from.

 

[leeloo]

I had a Landcruiser. They break down as well with age and mileage. Those who think they buy a 12 year old Landcruiser or GX 460 , do an oil change and have a happy off roading for another decade, will be in for a shock. . If you use it like the previous owner, getting kids to school - sure. You start load it to the max and do off road - expect many repairs. You might not touch the engine, but all else is fair game.

 

[MOAK]

A 2006 Jeep Rubicon started at $27,620 in '05 (when they first went on sale) money. Adjusted for Bidenflation, that's $42,309.65. A 2023 Rubicon 2-door starts at $43,295 - we're talking $1k difference and you get a LOT more features/comfort in a JLR vs. a TJR. I'm not sure what the relevance of the "spec'ed out bling" version's price is, clearly that's not needed for Overlanding, or farm/ranch life. Sure, you'll be able to spend ~$90k on a 392 JLUR with the XTreme Recon and 25th Aniv packages (which actually brings 37" tires stock) but that's far, far from an apples to apples comparison with a TJR. The bottom line is you're paying about the same $ for a Rubicon now, as you did in 2006 and the current one is overall a much better vehicle. I honestly don't understand what you think won't last about it as compared to a TJ. The frame is superior, the axles are superior (yes, both are "Dana 44s" but the JL housings, Cs and some internals are better). And no, corporations don't use Jeeps as work fleet vehicles, but they ALSO didn't in the TJ-era, so what's your point? I think that has less to do with longevity of the brand/platform (you see plenty of other Stellantis products in fleets), and more that very, very, very, VERY few corporations have a use-case for a Rubicon. $43k is a lot of money for a small, 2-door vehicle if things like lockers and solid axles don't actually provide any value. A base 1/2 ton pickup is going to serve most corporations MUCH better than ANY Jeep. As for the "confidence to get 150k" out of a Jeep, I'm not sure that was EVER a thing. I can't think of one Jeep that won't have significant maintenance and probably some kind of major failure before 150k, but if I had to pick one to bet the farm on I'd probably be picking a JL with the 3.6 over any previous Jeep.

I get it, you don't like newer vehicles, and that's fine. I'm weird and love both old, and new tech.

-TJ

You are correct, I don’t do a very good job of putting in text what is on my mind. I spent 3/4 of my life trusting the big 3 automakers, only to get burned each and every time. Imagine having a dead short, in a brand new pick up truck. Had to shut down the job site , have it flatbeaded to the dealership. They took eight hours locating the short. They charged me for the labor because it was a “commercial” vehicle. The $20 part was covered. That’s just one instance. Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me, burn me thrice? I’m an idiot. Well, I’ve been the idiot. To the tune of a $4,000 repair for a jeep 2,000 miles out of warranty but with the problem documented since day 1 of ownership. Why? Bad QC. A good friend of mine just traded in his 6 year old, dealer maintained Dakota, because the freeze plugs rotted away. They had to drop the transmission to get at the two bad ones. Why? Bad QC. My best friend, has a Chevy SUV, with less than 80,000 miles, they must pull the engine to replace a bad power steering pump. It’s all documented, but now it’s out of warranty Why? Bad QC. Stories such as these are endless with vehicles made by the former big 3. So, ya, I’ve been burned and when asked for advice, either personally or on an open forum I’ll do everything I can to steer folks to Toyota, Hyundai, Nissan, Mitsubishi, etc.
When I refer to work fleet vehicles I’m thinking of mining, oil, NG work trucks or United Nations fleet vehicles. ( I thought I said that earlier) Here in the states it is usually Ford, GM or Dodge pick up trucks of the 3/4 ton and larger payload capacity. Why? Availability. There’s a dealership within a hundred miles or so anywhere in the US. World wide it is the Landcruiser 70 series pick up truck version used in work truck fleets. Why? Dependability. Those trucks are being used thousands of miles from the nearest parts stores, let alone dealerships. It all boils down to trust. Would you personally take a well maintained jeep, ford, GM or Dodge with over 350,000 miles on a 14,000 mile trip deep into non inhabited territories? Even new? My brother in law has a new ( 2019) Chevy Colorado with the duramax engine. My 96 80 series has 360k, my buddies 94 80 series has well over 1/2 million miles. I’m a lot more concerned about electronic failures that can easily cripple the Chevy than our old cruisers reliability. I feel the same way about not trusting all of the electronic gizmology (the bling factor) that modern vehicles rely on. It’s not a mechanical breakdown that’ll leave you stranded, it’s the electronics. That’s why on our next trip I’ll be carrying a spare rotor, coil, igniter, and a couple of ignition wires along with relays and fuses. Don’t anyone take this personally, it’s great campfire talk and a subject matter that will never go away.

 

[tjZ06]

You are correct, I don’t do a very good job of putting in text what is on my mind. I spent 3/4 of my life trusting the big 3 automakers, only to get burned each and every time. Imagine having a dead short, in a brand new pick up truck. Had to shut down the job site , have it flatbeaded to the dealership. They took eight hours locating the short. They charged me for the labor because it was a “commercial” vehicle. The $20 part was covered. That’s just one instance. Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me, burn me thrice? I’m an idiot. Well, I’ve been the idiot. To the tune of a $4,000 repair for a jeep 2,000 miles out of warranty but with the problem documented since day 1 of ownership. Why? Bad QC. A good friend of mine just traded in his 6 year old, dealer maintained Dakota, because the freeze plugs rotted away. They had to drop the transmission to get at the two bad ones. Why? Bad QC. My best friend, has a Chevy SUV, with less than 80,000 miles, they must pull the engine to replace a bad power steering pump. It’s all documented, but now it’s out of warranty Why? Bad QC. Stories such as these are endless with vehicles made by the former big 3. So, ya, I’ve been burned and when asked for advice, either personally or on an open forum I’ll do everything I can to steer folks to Toyota, Hyundai, Nissan, Mitsubishi, etc.
When I refer to work fleet vehicles I’m thinking of mining, oil, NG work trucks or United Nations fleet vehicles. ( I thought I said that earlier) Here in the states it is usually Ford, GM or Dodge pick up trucks of the 3/4 ton and larger payload capacity. Why? Availability. There’s a dealership within a hundred miles or so anywhere in the US. World wide it is the Landcruiser 70 series pick up truck version used in work truck fleets. Why? Dependability. Those trucks are being used thousands of miles from the nearest parts stores, let alone dealerships. It all boils down to trust. Would you personally take a well maintained jeep, ford, GM or Dodge with over 350,000 miles on a 14,000 mile trip deep into non inhabited territories? Even new? My brother in law has a new ( 2019) Chevy Colorado with the duramax engine. My 96 80 series has 360k, my buddies 94 80 series has well over 1/2 million miles. I’m a lot more concerned about electronic failures that can easily cripple the Chevy than our old cruisers reliability. I feel the same way about not trusting all of the electronic gizmology (the bling factor) that modern vehicles rely on. It’s not a mechanical breakdown that’ll leave you stranded, it’s the electronics. That’s why on our next trip I’ll be carrying a spare rotor, coil, igniter, and a couple of ignition wires along with relays and fuses. Don’t anyone take this personally, it’s great campfire talk and a subject matter that will never go away.

Right on, and thanks for taking the time to reply. I always appreciate actually hearing an opposing (or perhaps not that opposing in this case) view point that's well articulated vs. the usual forum "flame wars." I definitely agree about taking out a brand-brand new vehicle. Truth be told, I trust going out in my 12 year old, nearly 150k (hard) miles Chevy more than if I went and bought a brand new... well anything tomorrow. All vehicles can have faults, and I trust something I've put basically every mile on and has proven itself. And to muddy the waters further, I've only had one vehicle that had to be bought-back as a Lemon, and it was a Toyota product ('06 Lexus IS250). I will say I'd agree on steering clear of ANY of the new diesels. My truck was the first year for DEF and all that for GMs, but, well... let's just say "it's no longer a concern." Newer stuff has only gotten worse, look at the terrible reliability with the Ecodiesels in Jeep/RAMs, who would have thought an Italian diesel with two different EGR systems on top of all the usual Cat/DPF/DEF/regen/etc wouldn't be reliable...

-TJ

 

[Mountaintrails71]

03-09 GX is the 470. Not a 460. I have had over 60 vehicles in my life. Grew up on farm equipment and everything was Chevy or International and I got into jeeps 40 years ago. Fast forward to today. Nothing but Toyota in my garage. Currently a GX460 for my adventure rig and a 4Runner for our grocery getter. I have had the GX470 also and sold it to a family member. GX V8 is awesome.

 

[DintDobbs]

@yohanan.hades Not sure if you intended it, but you didn't include your own thoughts after quoting part of Post #3.

 

[Alanymarce]

@Alanymarce While the 4th gen Monteros look nice, we don't get them here in the states so those are out of the question. While a JK/ JL Rubicon would be nice, I worry about the space and comfort since I wouldn't be rock crawling with the vehicle. Most of the campouts the Scouts take are anywhere between 2 to 5 hours away on regular roads, so on road comfort is a big factor which is why I did not even have the JK / JL Rubicon on the list. Oh, and for the Jeep Grand Cherokee, I would be looking at the Trailhawk since it is supposed to have all the off-road goodies that you can have on a Grand.

I take your point, however thought I'd add another 2 cents - when we bought the Montero we did look at a JK, and decided against it principally because we thought that the space and comfort would be inadequate. Compared with the Montero they are, however when we looked at buying in Canada (too expensive to ship the Montero) we found the JK a lot better than we expected. I think that a lot of JKs have been modified to the point where the comfort does indeed suffer, however ours is standard and has proved comfortable on long highway runs (21,632 km last year, some off-highway, like the Dempster, however probably 2/3 on asphalt).

 

[m_lars]

@MOAK May be I'm misunderstanding, but if you're looking for high-mileage reliability, Land Rover isn't in the game. They do tours in Hummers all over the place on the US east coast, the first-gen civ Hummers are a big deal for tourists on NC's Outer Banks.

Companies rebuild Land Rover Defenders from the '80s and '90s, upgrade the electronics, and distribute them for hundreds of thousands of dollars worldwide, for expeditions, safaris, tourists, and enthusiasts.

I don't remember ever insinuating that either Hummers or Land Rovers were reliable. They are both capable, but the only fleet use I am aware of is for tours and safaris. I don't know of any company that would use them as work trucks.

I'll just retreat to my bunker now.

Depends on the Land Rover. I’ve got just about 275k on my ‘06 LR3 and it shows no signs of stopping. It could use new air struts at this point, but they are still the originals!

I used to work with a guy who owned a hummer and one guy who worked on them in the guard. The guy who owned one said he loved to hit the ditch full speed if someone was turning left in front of him on a two lane road! The guy who worked on them in the guard said they were the only vehicle that you could park in working order and have it be broke down when you tried to drive it again!

 

[DintDobbs]

@m_lars Yeah, Land Rover has changed hands a lot of times over the decades, so it's really not easy to say they're all good or all bad - just, with most vehicles (including mine, the notorious Ford Exploder) the bad experiences by far outshine the good. Mostly it comes down to operator foolishness and lack of maintenance. People buy a $100,000 car and then don't want to pay for premium fuels and synthetic oil, and wonder why it doesn't last.

No hate on Land Rovers from me. I could have bought a Disco II for cheap as my first ride, but knew I wouldn't have been able to afford the maintenance. European vehicles tend to be maintenance-heavy in general, and importing parts for 'em is a lot more expensive than it is for Asian vehicles. If you can afford the entry and maintenance fees, Europe offers the top of the line in both on-road and off-road performance.

Hummers look awesome and have unmatched capabilities, WHEN they work. With the reliability absence, I wonder how they ever got approved for military use.

 

[m_lars]

@m_lars Yeah, Land Rover has changed hands a lot of times over the decades, so it's really not easy to say they're all good or all bad - just, with most vehicles (including mine, the notorious Ford Exploder) the bad experiences by far outshine the good. Mostly it comes down to operator foolishness and lack of maintenance. People buy a $100,000 car and then don't want to pay for premium fuels and synthetic oil, and wonder why it doesn't last.

No hate on Land Rovers from me. I could have bought a Disco II for cheap as my first ride, but knew I wouldn't have been able to afford the maintenance. European vehicles tend to be maintenance-heavy in general, and importing parts for 'em is a lot more expensive than it is for Asian vehicles. If you can afford the entry and maintenance fees, Europe offers the top of the line in both on-road and off-road performance.

Hummers look awesome and have unmatched capabilities, WHEN they work. With the reliability absence, I wonder how they ever got approved for military use.

You are perpetuating harmful stereotypes! In my experience (owning nearly every manufacturer) parts are parts. It doesn’t matter if their domestic, Asian, British, German or Swedish. They are all equally expensive and pretty much equally available. Premium fuel is a price I’m willing to pay for having something with character and a quality feel.

 

[DintDobbs]

@m_lars Harmful stereotypes are a part of reality, my friend. And, sadly, they do come from somewhere.

I can only speak from my own experience, but at least where I am, and with the vehicles I've dealt with, locally available parts for domestics are far cheaper than foreign-sourced parts which must be imported from the country of origin.

Although, I would imagine that you are comparing Land Rover prices with, say, Jeep and Hummer prices, whereas I'm comparing Honda prices with Ford and Dodge prices. There is a significant economic class difference to be noted here. For high-end, handsomely-equipped vehicles that compare to yours, I have no doubt that they do tend to charge just about the same, no matter what you drive or where the parts come from. I stand corrected.

I can't afford those prices, or even Honda prices, which is why I drive a humble Ford.

 

[Arailt]

In my experience (owning nearly every manufacturer) parts are parts. It doesn’t matter if their domestic, Asian, British, German or Swedish. They are all equally expensive and pretty much equally available. Premium fuel is a price I’m willing to pay for having something with character and a quality feel.

I have experienced the opposite. Compared to Euros, parts for domestic and Asian vehicles I've owned are significantly less expensive and far more supported by less expensive aftermarket/non-OEM options. I can't speak to LRs, but I've be stuck repairing my wife's Mercedes and BMWs over the years and compared to my Jeeps and Toyotas, the parts are outrageous and almost always come direct order from Germany rather than a quick trip to Auto Zone. Now, if you only buy Lexus/Toyota OEM parts, they're more expensive than Auto Zone, but still not as expensive as German parts.

 

[m_lars]

@m_lars Harmful stereotypes are a part of reality, my friend. And, sadly, they do come from somewhere.

I can only speak from my own experience, but at least where I am, and with the vehicles I've dealt with, locally available parts for domestics are far cheaper than foreign-sourced parts which must be imported from the country of origin.

Although, I would imagine that you are comparing Land Rover prices with, say, Jeep and Hummer prices, whereas I'm comparing Honda prices with Ford and Dodge prices. There is a significant economic class difference to be noted here. For high-end, handsomely-equipped vehicles that compare to yours, I have no doubt that they do tend to charge just about the same, no matter what you drive or where the parts come from. I stand corrected.

I can't afford those prices, or even Honda prices, which is why I drive a humble Ford.

Sometimes they’re just assumptions. I paid $5200 for my 2006 LR3 5 years ago. Everyone thinks it was really expensive because it says Land Rover on it. As far as Parts goes, the last part I replaced on my Land Rover was the radiator. On rockauto Nissens brand (original equipment on my vehicle) was $206.79, for your Ford Explorer the Nissens was $255.79. There were cheaper options for both vehicles, but that’s the one I bought and seemed the most accurate to compare. Hardly a comprehensive comparison, but you get the jist. I know there are certain parts on mine, that are way more expensive (air suspension parts), but the most common wear items are really the same ballpark.

 

[m_lars]

In my experience (owning nearly every manufacturer) parts are parts. It doesn’t matter if their domestic, Asian, British, German or Swedish. They are all equally expensive and pretty much equally available. Premium fuel is a price I’m willing to pay for having something with character and a quality feel.

I have experienced the opposite. Compared to Euros, parts for domestic and Asian vehicles I've owned are significantly less expensive and far more supported by less expensive aftermarket/non-OEM options. I can't speak to LRs, but I've be stuck repairing my wife's Mercedes and BMWs over the years and compared to my Jeeps and Toyotas, the parts are outrageous and almost always come direct order from Germany rather than a quick trip to Auto Zone. Now, if you only buy Lexus/Toyota OEM parts, they're more expensive than Auto Zone, but still not as expensive as German parts.

Yeah, I’m not really buying all of that. I’ve never owned a Merc, but we currently have 3 BMWs in the family, have had 5 total (including one modern Mini which is BMW) and 7 Audi/VW. I’ve NEVER had to order a part direct from Germany. I’ve walked into a local parts store and they’ve had very random parts on hand when I’ve needed them in an emergency. Maybe not AMG or M, but there’s plenty of good support at the local parts store.

I also don’t buy that Toyota parts are cheap. The only criticism you can actually get out of a Toyota fanboy is that Toyota brand parts are freakin’ expensive. Feel free to give me an example if you think I’m wrong. Take a look at my reply to DirtDobbs a post or two up. My Land Rover radiator was cheaper than one by the same manufacturer than it was for his Explorer.

I will add one caveat to my statements. I don’t buy aftermarket parts. 10 years ago, yes, but not anymore. They are absolute junk. We had an envoy that went through 4 aftermarket coils from the local parts store on the same cylinder before I broke down and bought quality replacements. They warrantied it, but still, what a hassle! Especially when it was my wife’s car! I buy OEM parts, those made by the original manufacturer of the OE name brand part, but not the vehicle brand part. Example, injectors for the Mini, $250 each for Mini on the box, $50 for Bosch on the box. They are exactly the same part. I’m guessing Toyota has this option as well , but I’ve never cared to look. I’ve never been in one I would ever own.

 

[DintDobbs]

@m_lars OK, you win. But buying OEM, I wonder why I would buy a Land Rover OEM part for my Explorer, that seems a bit illogical when I could buy actual Ford ones for cheaper. But, you do you, guy. Don't let anybody change your mind.

$5200 is way more than I'd have paid for any Ford from that year, back in the day, but the entry fee to any Toyota is a lot higher. I found a '92 4Runner in overall good shape with like 200k on it for $16,000, just a year or two ago. Parts might be cheap, but I could build 2 more Fords like mine for cheaper than one stock 'Yota.

I imagine there is probably a regional difference as well. If there are LR/Euro car dealers around where you live, parts stores and dealerships group order and order through each other in order to get stuff cheaper. That is a relevant factor that hasn't been addressed, but this is really a conversation for a different thread.

@Dysan Sorry, we didn't mean to hijack your thread, but maintenance costs and parts availability are concerns that will affect you sooner or later.

 

[m_lars]

@m_lars OK, you win. But buying OEM, I wonder why I would buy a Land Rover OEM part for my Explorer, that seems a bit illogical when I could buy actual Ford ones for cheaper. But, you do you, guy. Don't let anybody change your mind.

$5200 is way more than I'd have paid for any Ford from that year, back in the day, but the entry fee to any Toyota is a lot higher. I found a '92 4Runner in overall good shape with like 200k on it for $16,000, just a year or two ago. Parts might be cheap, but I could build 2 more Fords like mine for cheaper than one stock 'Yota.

I imagine there is probably a regional difference as well. If there are LR/Euro car dealers around where you live, parts stores and dealerships group order and order through each other in order to get stuff cheaper. That is a relevant factor that hasn't been addressed, but this is really a conversation for a different thread.

@Dysan Sorry, we didn't mean to hijack your thread, but maintenance costs and parts availability are concerns that will affect you sooner or later.

I’m not sure why your pissed? I’m just trying to correct a common misconception, not argue with you. You can chose to believe what I show you, or not.

Did you really not understand the radiator comparison? Just because Nissens made the original radiator for my Land Rover doesn’t mean that’s the only company they make radiators for. ‍♂ I simply chose that one for an explorer so that the brand was not the difference in price. I always try to find out who made the original part and then buy that part where I can rather than buying same thing with the vehicle manufacture’s label. It looks like a genuine Fire radiator is $370

Sorry you took offense to that, it was not my intention.

 

[Arailt]

If I was driving a Land Rover, I'd convince myself it was cheap to repair too