Trail Security

[grubworm]

i'm definitely pro-gun and have carried all my life, but seeing how things are now days and how in some states, defending yourself with a gun will get you in more trouble than the person attacking you...i've recently decided to not go heeled on trips, especially in other states where i could easily get corn-holed being an outsider.

unfortunately, i feel the odds of surviving a gunshot are better than surviving a court room where the laws protect the criminals....

 

[mep1811]

i'm definitely pro-gun and have carried all my life, but seeing how things are now days and how in some states, defending yourself with a gun will get you in more trouble than the person attacking you...i've recently decided to not go heeled on trips, especially in other states where i could easily get corn-holed being an outsider.

unfortunately, i feel the odds of surviving a gunshot are better than surviving a court room where the laws protect the criminals....

That is why having good insurance can give one some peace of mind.

 

[freak4life]

I have never needed or carried a gun camping. East coast.
I carry a .40 in Griz country.

That is wonderful, I hope you never need a gun while camping and not have one with you. It does only take one time of needing a gun and not having one, and you may never have another chance to camp.

 

[DaleRF]

That is wonderful, I hope you never need a gun while camping and not have one with you. It does only take one time of needing a gun and not having one, and you may never have another chance to camp.

Yep!

 

[Boostpowered]

i'm definitely pro-gun and have carried all my life, but seeing how things are now days and how in some states, defending yourself with a gun will get you in more trouble than the person attacking you...i've recently decided to not go heeled on trips, especially in other states where i could easily get corn-holed being an outsider.

unfortunately, i feel the odds of surviving a gunshot are better than surviving a court room where the laws protect the criminals....

Great Grandparents used to preach Out in the woods you follow the 3 s system: shoot, shovel, shut up. It ain't illegal unless you get caught.

Really though learn the specific gun laws of states your traveling through and final destination, there are plenty of states that are totally gun friendly and some you have to follow the little rules to get by like lock a gun up vs laying in your lap. there are only a handful of states and city's that are complete no go zones for gun people and we all know them they've been around for a while.

I don't vist places where I can't legally have a handgun at the very least. Its like voting with your wallet or boycotting something. If they don't want my business then I won't give it to em.

 

[mep1811]

i'm definitely pro-gun and have carried all my life, but seeing how things are now days and how in some states, defending yourself with a gun will get you in more trouble than the person attacking you...i've recently decided to not go heeled on trips, especially in other states where i could easily get corn-holed being an outsider.

unfortunately, i feel the odds of surviving a gunshot are better than surviving a court room where the laws protect the criminals....

Better to have and not need than need and not have.

 

[mep1811]

No matter where you go you should have a plan. Situational awareness is important and each person needs to figure out what they are going to do in different scenarios.

Part of that is determining what you are going to be . A victim or a survivor.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

That is wonderful, I hope you never need a gun while camping and not have one with you. It does only take one time of needing a gun and not having one, and you may never have another chance to camp.

My father was in VietNam, so, when I was a kid, he talked about preparedness and personal defense all the time. Self defense, the K.i.s.s. doctrine, as well as the "better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it" philosophy.

Just to be clear, I do subscribe to and try to follow those tenets. I was taught to shoot in NC at age 3 or 4 (just a bb gun then, but all the basic rules and aim and such) and was out carrying my .22 on hunts and hikes in the Adirondacks of Upstate NY by age 10. Got my pistol license here in Massachusetts as soon as was legal, over 30 years ago. Learned some Kung fu and some karate, for years I took each.
What I am getting at is - I am no shrinking violet.

Having said that, define "need." This seems less and less a trail security thread and more and more a gun thread. I try to differentiate between the two. There are many things that can be done under the broad heading of trail security that have no relation to firearms whatsoever. Bears hate the sound of jingle bells. Put em on your pack when hiking. At least lock your stuff when away from camp or leave someone at camp. Good lockable storage solutions. We have lights all over our trucks, why not cameras? Or whatever other good security ideas.

Granted, I am perfectly comfortable with a pistol at my side and long gun slung, but I really wonder that it is anywhere near as necessary as some might think. Obviously I am in the east, and we dont have anywhere near the number of dangerous critters you may have in the west, but I have never ever felt in danger hiking or camping here in the east, by man or beast, even though I do know it could happen.

I also havent been out in the bush for weeks or months at a time, nor have I been west of the Mississippi, so there is that. My nephew out in Montana carries a gun when he is on his hikes. I bet there is more out there that wants to eat me than there is here in the Northeast, so I would probably carry out there, too.

But I just dont think we should be telling a guy who chooses not to carry a gun that his head will fall off or his d!ck will explode or his wife will get raped or a bear is gonna claw him up one day, just because he is out there enjoying nature without a firearm. There are pretty effective ways of avoiding all of those situations. If unavoidable, there are ways to defend other than guns. Of course, sometimes the gun is the great equalizer, I wholeheartedly agree. Been there myself. But is there anything else security related that's going to be discussed here?

 

[Boostpowered]

My father was in VietNam, so, when I was a kid, he talked about preparedness and personal defense all the time. Self defense, the K.i.s.s. doctrine, as well as the "better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it" philosophy.

Just to be clear, I do subscribe to and try to follow those tenets. I was taught to shoot in NC at age 3 or 4 (just a bb gun then, but all the basic rules and aim and such) and was out carrying my .22 on hunts and hikes in the Adirondacks of Upstate NY by age 10. Got my pistol license here in Massachusetts as soon as was legal, over 30 years ago. Learned some Kung fu and some karate, for years I took each.
What I am getting at is - I am no shrinking violet.

Having said that, define "need." This seems less and less a trail security thread and more and more a gun thread. I try to differentiate between the two. There are many things that can be done under the broad heading of trail security that have no relation to firearms whatsoever. Bears hate the sound of jingle bells. Put em on your pack when hiking. At least lock your stuff when away from camp or leave someone at camp. Good lockable storage solutions. We have lights all over our trucks, why not cameras? Or whatever other good security ideas.

Granted, I am perfectly comfortable with a pistol at my side and long gun slung, but I really wonder that it is anywhere near as necessary as some might think. Obviously I am in the east, and we dont have anywhere near the number of dangerous critters you may have in the west, but I have never ever felt in danger hiking or camping here in the east, by man or beast, even though I do know it could happen.

I also havent been out in the bush for weeks or months at a time, nor have I been west of the Mississippi, so there is that. My nephew out in Montana carries a gun when he is on his hikes. I bet there is more out there that wants to eat me than there is here in the Northeast, so I would probably carry out there, too.

But I just dont think we should be telling a guy who chooses not to carry a gun that his head will fall off or his d!ck will explode or his wife will get raped or a bear is gonna claw him up one day, just because he is out there enjoying nature without a firearm. There are pretty effective ways of avoiding all of those situations. If unavoidable, there are ways to defend other than guns. Of course, sometimes the gun is the great equalizer, I wholeheartedly agree. Been there myself. But is there anything else security related that's going to be discussed here?

Its not always about the danger you have on the trail, its the danger of the 2 legged critters that live in concrete jungles you drive through on the way to the destination that require firearms to be discussed.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Its not always about the danger you have on the trail, its the danger of the 2 legged critters that live in concrete jungles you drive through on the way to the destination that require firearms to be discussed.

Yes, I agree. The two legged variety are more duplicitous, AND can use tools. However, my post still stands, respectfully.

Since you bring up the concrete jungles...The general public walking through Central Park in NYC (just as an example) are not allowed to carry firearms. If we look at the firearm as the ONLY means of security, then we remove thought and ingenuity as to what someone in Central Park can do to be more secure.

If someone from New England drives thru NYC to get to a nice park in New Jersey, they aren't likely to be legally able to carry a firearm through NYC. Myself, I would just avoid NYC, Chicago, and the like altogether, but I'm just saying as an example. Now what do you do?

 

[Boostpowered]

Yes, I agree. The two legged variety are more duplicitous, AND can use tools. However, my post still stands, respectfully.

Since you bring up the concrete jungles...The general public walking through Central Park in NYC (just as an example) are not allowed to carry firearms. If we look at the firearm as the ONLY means of security, then we remove thought and ingenuity as to what someone in Central Park can do to be more secure.

If someone from New England drives thru NYC to get to a nice park in New Jersey, they aren't likely to be legally able to carry a firearm through NYC. Myself, I would just avoid NYC, Chicago, and the like altogether, but I'm just saying as an example. Now what do you do?

Not to be mean but I wouldnt ever go to nyc to begin with its a known anti gun haven. That park in NJ can't be nice enough to surrender your life to the hands of stupid lawmakers.

Nearly every year we have to drive from TX to Indiana for Christmas, it would be quicker to go up through Oklahoma, Missouri, Illinois to indy but because of Illinois we take a longer route through arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky to indy just to be able to be free.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Not to be mean but I wouldnt ever go to nyc to begin with its a known anti gun haven. That park in NJ can't be nice enough to surrender your life to the hands of stupid lawmakers.

Nearly every year we have to drive from TX to Indiana for Christmas, it would be quicker to go up through Oklahoma, Missouri, Illinois to indy but because of Illinois we take a longer route through arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky to indy just to be able to be free.

Well, I've got an aversion to NYC myself, and just like not wanting to park my truck in the city, I prefer to find a nice restaurant in the suburbs with parking. So, the firearm issue can be the same - avoid places I cant park my truck, avoid places I cannot carry a pistol. Ok, but you are not answering the question I posed, and you remain within a narrow construct of security.

Over the years I have had some lucrative contracts, some of them required work in NYC. Some of them started elsewhere and unexpectedly led to NYC. Was I supposed to be afraid that I "surrendered my life to the hands of stupid lawmakers" or was I supposed to find another ways to be "secure" while I was there?

Nobody needs to go to the post office much these days but if and when you do, its technically illegal to carry your firearm there. Cant carry it in a courthouse if you need to go into one for a divorce or child custody hearing, or registry of deeds. Cant carry a gun there. So no, not often might you need to go to those places, but it could come up.

I dont walk around all day every day feeling my life is in danger. I DO however, try to be vigilant and observant. Active rather than just re-active. It's true, you never know when something terrible is gonna happen, like that guy in the mall in Utah a few years back. But you limit your options if you only think of security in terms of guns.

Yes we have a right to bear arms, but are we as prepared as we think we are if we are that nervous without one, for a day even, in some city somewhere?

 

[Boostpowered]

Easiest way to find if the state you'd be going through is safe for having a firearm is if they have at the very minimum a peaceable journey

Well, I've got an aversion to NYC myself, and just like not wanting to park my truck in the city, I prefer to find a nice restaurant in the suburbs with parking. So, the firearm issue can be the same - avoid places I cant park my truck, avoid places I cannot carry a pistol. Ok, but you are not answering the question I posed, and you remain within a narrow construct of security.

Over the years I have had some lucrative contracts, some of them required work in NYC. Some of them started elsewhere and unexpectedly led to NYC. Was I supposed to be afraid that I "surrendered my life to the hands of stupid lawmakers" or was I supposed to find another ways to be "secure" while I was there?

Nobody needs to go to the post office much these days but if and when you do, its technically illegal to carry your firearm there. Cant carry it in a courthouse if you need to go into one for a divorce or child custody hearing, or registry of deeds. Cant carry a gun there. So no, not often might you need to go to those places, but it could come up.

I dont walk around all day every day feeling my life is in danger. I DO however, try to be vigilant and observant. Active rather than just re-active. It's true, you never know when something terrible is gonna happen, like that guy in the mall in Utah a few years back. But you limit your options if you only think of security in terms of guns.

Yes we have a right to bear arms, but are we as prepared as we think we are if we are that nervous without one, for a day even, in some city somewhere?

If your asking if I'm nervous to be without a gun? No. I make the decision not to carry even though I can quite often.
I grew up fighting so I have no aversion to going hand to hand and I'm handy with a knife as well, sometimes I just don't feel like carrying But if a gun isn't on my body there will be one locked up in my truck somewhere.
If I had to go to one of the no gun places for work like your example I would just suck it up, it would be over soon enough. But would I lay down that right to casually go to an anti gun state or city for recreational reasons? No I won't go to that state or city and buy gas or snacks or spend any money and give to that system that limits your rights, has nothing to do with being scared or nervous its about my right to exercise my freedom as a citizen of the United States of America.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Easiest way to find if the state you'd be going through is safe for having a firearm is if they have at the very minimum a peaceable journey

If your asking if I'm nervous to be without a gun? No. I make the decision not to carry even though I can quite often.
I grew up fighting so I have no aversion to going hand to hand and I'm handy with a knife as well, sometimes I just don't feel like carrying But if a gun isn't on my body there will be one locked up in my truck somewhere.
If I had to go to one of the no gun places for work like your example I would just suck it up, it would be over soon enough. But would I lay down that right to casually go to an anti gun state or city for recreational reasons? No I won't go to that state or city and buy gas or snacks or spend any money and give to that system that limits your rights, has nothing to do with being scared or nervous its about my right to exercise my freedom as a citizen of the United States of America.

Ok. Fair enough. I'm very much like you, so by no means is any of this an attack, it's more a "what if you cant" scenario. I dont carry that often anymore, but have no aversion whatsoever.

I also agree, I like to vote with my wallet. Mom & pop local shops first, Amazon type commerce as a last resort. The same, like I said, with parking at restaurants. I can find a quality restaurant anywhere, doesnt have to be in a city that bends me over to park.

And, as time goes on, I may be leaving the state of Mass someday and head to a place that is more 2nd amendment friendly, to live and spend my money there.

 

[grubworm]

ive traveled a lot overseas and did quite a bit of it solo. i couldn't travel with weapons and i was in foreign countries, so i focused more on NOT getting into bad situations to start with.
@mep1811 mentioned "situational awareness", which should be a priority even if you are packing. pay attention and know whats going on around you and a lot of mess can and will be avoided.
i spent some time in rio de janiero years back and was told how americans get mugged and beaten there quite often. from my experience, americans stand out in foreign countries (and here at home as well) by being loud, rude and flashy. a fellow diver at my company was in rio and he ran his mouth and got put in a hospital, others got mugged for wearing fancy watches and shoes. when i got there, i bought some cheap local shoes and a t-shirt with portuguese writing on it, so i blended in with locals. im also very tan and have always been mistaken for mexican or latino, so that was also a help being in brazil. basically, i paid attention to my surroundings and kept quiet and blended in. i got lost and ended up in some bad barios, but never had a problem because i didnt stick out as a target, a threat, or anything...just another local guy walking around.
bad people look for victims that are unaware and easily taken by surprise. i make it a habit to always look around and if i see someone sketchy looking at me, i'll make brief eye contact to let him know im aware of him, but then look away quick enough so not to be provoking. it sounds funny, but posture also helps. stand up tall and shoulders back and look like you are walking confident and with a purpose...walking hunched over makes you look weak and easy to roll. this applies out in the wilderness as well as the city.
a lot of times, people will just be testing you. a guy wanting to take your wallet might just approach and ask for a cigarette, etc. to feel you out. thats when its good to be relaxed but keep eye contact, dont be looking away or digging in your pocket and be ready to strike the throat or eye socket if you see him coming out with a blade.
i believe that being aware of the surroundings and having the right body language can deter a lot of bad situations from happening and sometimes shit just happens and all you can do is react with whatever resources are immediately available.
and remember that fighting isn't just throwing punches. the jaw muscles are also a very strong weapon and everything is fair in battle, so do a mike tyson if needs be...if all you have available is a mouth and they have an exposed ear...bite that shit off! who needs a gun when you have incisors!

 

[ThundahBeagle]

ive traveled a lot overseas and did quite a bit of it solo. i couldn't travel with weapons and i was in foreign countries, so i focused more on NOT getting into bad situations to start with.
@mep1811 mentioned "situational awareness", which should be a priority even if you are packing. pay attention and know whats going on around you and a lot of mess can and will be avoided.
i spent some time in rio de janiero years back and was told how americans get mugged and beaten there quite often. from my experience, americans stand out in foreign countries (and here at home as well) by being loud, rude and flashy. a fellow diver at my company was in rio and he ran his mouth and got put in a hospital, others got mugged for wearing fancy watches and shoes. when i got there, i bought some cheap local shoes and a t-shirt with portuguese writing on it, so i blended in with locals. im also very tan and have always been mistaken for mexican or latino, so that was also a help being in brazil. basically, i paid attention to my surroundings and kept quiet and blended in. i got lost and ended up in some bad barios, but never had a problem because i didnt stick out as a target, a threat, or anything...just another local guy walking around.
bad people look for victims that are unaware and easily taken by surprise. i always make it a habit to always look around and if i see someone sketchy looking at me, i'll make brief eye contact to let him know im aware of him, but then look away quick enough so not to be provoking. it sounds funny, but posture also helps. stand up tall and shoulders back and look like you are walking confident and with a purpose...walking hunched over makes you look weak and easy to roll. this applies out in the wilderness as well as the city.
a lot of times, people will just be testing you. a guy wanting to take your wallet might just approach and ask for a cigarette, etc. to feel you out. thats when its good to be relaxed but keep eye contact, dont be looking away or digging in your pocket and be ready to strike the throat or eye socket if you see him coming out with a blade.
i believe that being aware of the surroundings and having the right body language can deter a lot of bad situations from happening and sometimes shit just happens and all you can do is react with whatever resources are immediately available.
and remember that fighting isn't just throwing punches. the jaw muscles are also a very strong weapon and everything is fair in battle, so do a mike tyson if needs be...if all you have available is a mouth and they have an exposed ear...bite that shit off! who needs a gun when you have incisors!

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Yes, sir. This is all to my point. If there's bad looking dudes doing bad looking things on a doorstep down the sidewalk, why not cross the street and continue on your way, instead of walking right through the huddle?

Be aware. Walk with a purpose. By the way, in close quarters, it's easier to disarm a man of his knife or gun if I have both my hands free. So, if they get the drop on me for whatever reason, i do what i can.

I also have been to Brazil and Mexico and so on. Of course i could not bring my gun there. I guess that means i shouldnt have gone? Of course not. Your idea of blending in is exactly right. I learned some Portuguese before going. Didnt wear an expensive watch or bracelet., and on an on. It's all true, and goes to the PREVENTION and avoidance, which is tantamount in security

 

[FishinCrzy]

Cheap, easy to find, and probably legal anywhere...wasp spray. The good kind that shootz 30 feet or so. Not sure how that compares to bear or pepper spray but certainly cheaper. I advise people all the time that if they are scared of firearms just keep a can on the seat for quick dispensing....wasps are EVERYWHERE! You could be allergic and don't even know it! Pepper spray on your key chain is a little more convenient. Just try to get the bad person downwind.

 

[Petunia]

Cheap, easy to find, and probably legal anywhere...wasp spray. The good kind that shootz 30 feet or so. Not sure how that compares to bear or pepper spray but certainly cheaper. I advise people all the time that if they are scared of firearms just keep a can on the seat for quick dispensing....wasps are EVERYWHERE! You could be allergic and don't even know it! Pepper spray on your key chain is a little more convenient. Just try to get the bad person downwind.

Yup. Carried wasp spray for years. Cheaper than mace and easier to spray thru a crack in the window without getting sprayed too!

 

[Downs]

Do not use wasp spray for self defense. Just like birdshot in shotguns being for birds, wasp spray is for wasps. Proper name brand OC spray is pretty cheap on Amazon. Don't get the fogger, get either the stream or foam, it's less effected by winds.

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Fox Labs OC spray is pretty cheap 1.5oz can less than 30 dollars and is a well known name brand. Sabre also makes OC spray and you can get a 1.5oz can for about 15 dollars on Amazon.

And before someone says use bear spray. Bear spray is regulated by the EPA where as self defense OC spray is not so the concentrations of bear spray compared to consumer self defense spray is quite a bit lower like .18-2 percent where as there are self defense sprays out there at 10 percent. Advantage of bear spray is larger quantity vs self defense spray.

There's also the legal aspect of using what's classified as a pesticide (either wasp spray or bear spray, yes bear spray is classified as a pesticide) on another human. Granted you gotta do what you gotta do but why give the prosecution or the other guy's lawyer more ammo?

 

[DaleRF]

No matter where you go you should have a plan. Situational awareness is important and each person needs to figure out what they are going to do in different scenarios.

Part of that is determining what you are going to be . A victim or a survivor.

Well said.