SVO ....Small Vehicle Overlanding

[OuterLimits]

Hey Fugitive, I just picked up myself a 2007 escape v6. The patriot is still kickin, but I got a great deal on the scape! What's the largest tire I can fit on it?

Hey Kojack, Not sure max size. I'm running 235/75R16 (nominally 29") and could easily go up another size.

The old "Escape Central" website was a treasure trove of info like this, but alas, its is now dysfunctionally defunct.

 

[OuterLimits]

Here's my new (To me, anyway) Escape S.

Maybe this will be a momento of what it looked like at one point in its life. Unfortunately it is only FWD, but for the light trail exploring I do, some real good tires should be fine.

PJ, Congrats on the new ride. FWD will get you plenty of places.

I ran a Subaru FWD all over the desert on stock tires back in High School.



I guess I never got the memo that you need to have 4x4 to explore.

Get some good tires and go have some fun!

 

[Dilldog]

Figured I would check back in and add a bit.
Im not sure about the new Escapes, but my 05 does allow for a bit of wheel spin, but most importantly when it picks wheels off the ground it wont immobilize itself. One of the places I go shooting a lot is at the end of a 2 track (old logging skidder trail), its about a 12% grade in spots, always washed out and has lots of exposed rocks. It is literally impassible 5 months out of the year here (went up there once after a hard rain in my TJ that was locked front and rear, on 31s and a buddy had his 350 powered 4runner, sold axles, locked front and rear, and on 36s, both of us almost died, lol). Anyway during the summer you still need 4wheel or a rear locker because of the dips and wash outs. My 05 simply crawled up it, with minimal drama. I could tell a few times due to how the Escape felt and all the body creaking that it was on two wheels (opposite corners due to lack of articulation), it just kept going. For what its worth I have also run up this hill with buddies in 2 other cars (both Honda Ridgelines), all of us loaded with 4 people and gear in each rig, honestly about 1K lbs in each rig. The Ridgelines did it but the guys had to gas it quite a few places and use momentum to get through. They both also over heated and they had to shut off the A/C. Meanwhile I was just crawling along, with my A/C on. All three rigs have V6s and tow packages (what ever that means on a Ridgeline, lol), so I felt it was a good comparison.

 

[Dilldog]

Hey Kojack, Not sure max size. I'm running 235/75R16 (nominally 29") and could easily go up another size.

The old "Escape Central" website was a treasure trove of info like this, but alas, its is now dysfunctionally defunct.

Im running 245/75/16s on my Escape, they measure 30.5". No rubbing.

 

[Wawa Skittletits]

The Yokohama Geolander compound sucks, you’ll burn right through them. They came standard on Subaru rigs and I barely inched out 36K on that set. Recommend looking into something else.

There are several Geolandar versions but I would agree that the G91 (OE Subaru tire) is not a good tire. That said the A/T-S and G015 are much different and better tires.

 

[CR-Venturer]

Figured I would check back in and add a bit.
Im not sure about the new Escapes, but my 05 does allow for a bit of wheel spin, but most importantly when it picks wheels off the ground it wont immobilize itself.

Sounds like the miracle of traction control and/or a limited slip diff in the trans axle.

 

[Dilldog]

Sounds like the miracle of traction control and/or a limited slip diff in the trans axle.

I have heard that many XUVs will actually overload the TC system if one wheel leaves the ground, and they will go into a limp home mode because the computer thinks something is wrong. I guess you could just go trail running with a scan tool hooked up and reset the faults everytime that happens, lol.

 

[Plasmajab]

From what I've seen, some vehicle stability control systems can indeed get confused when you dog leg them.

Like if your rear left is off the ground and you get on the brake, the abs might fire on that side because it thinks that wheel is locked.

Or in the same situation, it senses no traction on that wheel, so it applies power on that side. Or in reverse it applies the brake on that side to send power to the opposite wheel of the same axle to act like a poor man's diff lock.

It really varies from brand to brand, year to year, model to model. TFLtruck on YouTube does tons of videos with xuv's and you can really see some of them in action.

Now I have seen on that page a few overheated CVT transmissions. That being said, Mitsubishi uses a CVT in the outlander sport (RVR up here in Canada) and it's no issue. I guess it all depends on how it's made.

 

[Wawa Skittletits]

It really varies from brand to brand, year to year, model to model. TFLtruck on YouTube does tons of videos with xuv's and you can really see some of them in action.

Now I have seen on that page a few overheated CVT transmissions. That being said, Mitsubishi uses a CVT in the outlander sport (RVR up here in Canada) and it's no issue. I guess it all depends on how it's made.

I agree that it really does vary year to year, model to model.

I honestly can't watch the TFL guys anymore. I don't understand how they can have an automotive channel and know next to nothing about the vehicles they're attempting to talk about.

 

[Plasmajab]

That's also true. I tend to just watch how the AWD systems work when they put them to the test.

For example. I believe it was the forester they were trying and the complaint was that it couldn't make it up a hill. They drove it into a depression and put the bumper on the hill, then tries to force it up.

Well. Duh. No vehicle is going to want to go when its face against a wall. That's where picking your line comes in. So after a rash of advice in the comments section, they finally got it sorted out, and were very successful when they moved to the left a bit.

That's also the thing with opinions from the car gurus. Its always biased.

 

[Plasmajab]

I think too that something we could discuss is the intended use bit.

I most of our vehicles are what I call light offroaders. It seems they are designed for light trails, dirt roads and stuff.

I think a lot of reviewers are like "well it pales in comparison to the jeep wrangler Rubicon with twin lockers, or the Toyota land cruiser diesel with lockers and air suspension."

Uh.. no kidding.

 

[CR-Venturer]

I think too that something we could discuss is the intended use bit.

I most of our vehicles are what I call light offroaders. It seems they are designed for light trails, dirt roads and stuff.

I think a lot of reviewers are like "well it pales in comparison to the jeep wrangler Rubicon with twin lockers, or the Toyota land cruiser diesel with lockers and air suspension."

Uh.. no kidding.

I often see this kind of thinking and criticism leveled at the RD1 CR-V in particular, which is very silly. Right from day 1, Honda never designed or intended the V to be a jeep killer - they always said the vehicle was designed to be capable of limited off road driving, but was primarily a road car. It's stupid to put it head to head with a Wrangler or Land cruiser and then criticize it when it isn't as good off road, it's like putting a Miata up against a Porche 911 and then criticising the Miata for not performing as well.

In fact, I've driven the V up a mountain keeping up with a pack of jeeps and navigated trails popular with UTVs - pretty dang impressive for a vehicle that was never designed as a dedicated off roader!

 

[Plasmajab]

Right what I think too. And this is somewhat discouraging for a lot of people. They see an XUV and they really like it, but they tend to pale in comparison to "true" SUV's. These are the types of people I find on the trails with huge jeeps or land rovers, or (Insert BOF 4x4 super suv here). And have no intention of using it to its full potential.

So that being said what I think my XUV can do is in this range:

Basically. If tread lightly comes to mind, then it's kinda what I'm aiming for.

What do you guys think? Think my escape could handle stuff like that with better tires?

What about yours?

 

[CR-Venturer]

I think what's going to cause you severe grief is bog holes, serious mud (like more than an inch or two deep), large rocks, or severe, rutted inclines, although you might do all right on the rutted inclines. Reasonably level forestry roads should be no serious issue for you, especially if you get some really good tires. Clearance and traction are your big hinderances (including approach and departure). With some careful and smart driving, you should be okay even on some cross ditches and ruts.

I think the only thing I really wouldn't try in my V is severe rock crawling and really deep mud. Everything else it seems to handle in stride with no real dramas. I might even try some light rock crawling, as it seemed to crawl pretty well when I had to pick my way around a boulder strewn track in November.

 

[Dilldog]

Those pics dont look any more extreme than some country roads around here, lol. Seriously though if you look back on Page 16 youll see a shot of my Escape on a small climb. Nothing major, maybe a 5% grade about 50 yards long, loose rocks and soft sandy dirt. I could feel the tires slipping here and there from rocks moving, but it just crawled up and didnt even slow down. Before I do much more exploring though I do plan on getting a few traction boards and mounting them on a roof rack. I figure with 4 full sized boards you can build a bridge over anything you cant drive around on a reasonable trail.

Use really is something that more people need to talk about. Im not a big time 4wheeler anymore, as soon as I admitted that to myself I was much happier with my car choice. An XUV will still get you out there, the only real difference to 90% of people is that XUV will be nicer on the Monday commute and easier to parallel park. To me the biggest thing to remain conscious of is the lack of under body and rocker protection. That was the one thing I liked most about my TJ Jeep, you could just drag the belly and never worry about a thing. If I dragged the Escape like I used to my TJ, I think I would start loosing fluids in a hurry.

Also ironically many transverse mounted engine front drive cars are easier to work on than newer pickups and SUVs. Being a mechanic I do ALL of my own work. I will honestly say this Escape is one of the easiest rigs to work on I have owned (Even when I had to troubleshoot an engine harness and backprobe wires and sensors). My Wifes 2011 GMC Terrain is a bit tougher but still a piece of cake to access most things (I will say I may feel this way because of experience, and the fact that I own a dealership level scan tool, and I invest in factory service manuals). After working on lots of F150s and Super Duties in the last few years, Ill take a sideways mounted engine in a compact XUV any day.

 

[Dilldog]

@fugitive Have you tried disconnecting or pulling the sway bars on your Escape and noted any improvement in performance? Im thinking about doing this and seeing if it works any better, also my sway bar end links are shot and Im a lazy cheap ass, lol.
Im sure some might say simply pulling them is dangerous, and Im sure it could be. I drove a TJ around for years with zero sway bars and never had any issues. But im a super mellow driver (i credit Frank Sinatra and NPR for keeping my on road attitude level with that of a 70 year old history professor). So if there is a decent increase in suspension performance I may just pull em. But if you dont get much Ill keep em around.

 

[CR-Venturer]

Transverse 4 bangers are usually very easy to work on. V6's can get really ugly though, if it's the back side of the engine that needs attention lol

On the issue of pulling sway bars on independent suspension. I've done some reading which asserted it's useless because the unweighted wheels have no pressure on them, however I've now seen two separate examples of automotive engineers who built the vehicles they're driving remove sway bars for more off road articulation, which I find a somewhat compelling argument that it does at least help a bit.

 

[Wawa Skittletits]

Regardless of intended use I think half of the fun when it comes to taking an 'outside the box' vehicle off road is finding its limits. I push my Outback every chance I get and I can honestly say that I don't question its abilities. That said I've never been a fan of rock crawling and I don't pretend to believe that my long roof is one.

That's also true. I tend to just watch how the AWD systems work when they put them to the test.

For example. I believe it was the forester they were trying and the complaint was that it couldn't make it up a hill. They drove it into a depression and put the bumper on the hill, then tries to force it up.

One of their more recent Subaru Outback videos is exactly why I can't watch them anymore. Capabilities aside, their comments were pure speculation at best. One thing that annoys me above all is misinformation and they continually spew it. Speaking from experience they also did an awful job of showing how capable Subaru's AWD system is.

On the issue of pulling sway bars on independent suspension. I've done some reading which asserted it's useless because the unweighted wheels have no pressure on them, however I've now seen two separate examples of automotive engineers who built the vehicles they're driving remove sway bars for more off road articulation, which I find a somewhat compelling argument that it does at least help a bit.

The whole point of disconnecting sway bars to to avoid unweighted wheels. I've been running without a rear sway bar for maybe 2 years now and it makes a big difference off road and in day to day comfort. I've planned to make disconnects for the front but I just haven't gotten around to it yet. Despite the fact that I'm running higher spring rates front and rear I'd be hesitant to remove the front. Not to say that it can't be done but thats where the great majority of sway control comes from and I drive corners too aggressively for that sort of feeling haha.

 

[CR-Venturer]

The argument against sway bar disconnect working on 4WIS or IFS is that you don't have the lever effect that comes with a live axle - when one wheel is pushed up, the other is automatically pushed down, and with enough articulation, into contact with the ground. This levering effect is absent in an independent suspension, however I tend to think that while the usefulness of SBDC is less in an independent suspension, it's still better to have light contact with the earth than no contact with it. LSD probably adds to this effect as well.

In any case, the fact that engineers from Jeep and Hyundai both thought it was worth doing suggests to me that it helps at least a little. I haven't yet tried it myself, mostly because of laziness, but I may give it a shot sometime.

 

[Dilldog]

I know from running IFS rigs pre and post sway bar it does help. I was mostly wondering if in particular the Escape will get a little squirrelly. I guess I'll just try it.