Seeking Basic but Decent Handheld Recs - Be specific

[M Rose]

You said lowering the power makes the GMRS radio an FRS radio. If that were true you would be able to hand the radio to an unlicensed person. Turning down the power on a GMRS radio doesn't make it an FRS radio.

can you tell if a person is running 2 watts on a GMRS radio vs 2 watts on an FRS radio of the same quality?

 

[GreyMatter]

You said lowering the power makes the GMRS radio an FRS radio. If that were true you would be able to hand the radio to an unlicensed person. Turning down the power on a GMRS radio doesn't make it an FRS radio.

can you tell if a person is running 2 watts on a GMRS radio vs 2 watts on an FRS radio of the same quality?

Probably not. Why do you ask?

 

[M Rose]

Probably not. Why do you ask?

I was asking because if you could I wanted to know how for another radio project I am working on.

 

[GreyMatter]

Probably not. Why do you ask?

I was asking because if you could I wanted to know how for another radio project I am working on.

What in tarnation are you talking about?

 

[M Rose]

What in tarnation are you talking about?

think of it like a fox hunt, but trying to find a specific radio at a specific location made by a specific company where there are several other similar transmitters transmitting the same information at the same time intervals at the same power levels.

 

[Tundracamper]

Thanks for all the info. For my first attempt, I decided to order the MURS radios suggest above. This seems like it will work well in the outdoor use that I intend to use it and I can hand it to anyone without needing a license. The 2W output seems to be a good starting point. If I find I need more in the future, I’ll look into GMRS.

Thanks again for all the suggestions!

 

[donmontalvo]

NotaRubicon Productions is the laughing stock in the radio community, 90% of his content is incorrect or teaching illegal practices. The ARRL VMs are watching him closely…

I’ve been watching some NotARubicon and he seems to be technically/legally correct.

Can you point to a video where he is “incorrect or teaching illegal practices”?

 

[M Rose]

I’ve been watching some NotARubicon and he seems to be technically/legally correct.

Can you point to a video where he is “incorrect or teaching illegal practices”?

Advocating the use of Baofeng UV5R on GMRS frequencies, using equipment outside of the bands in which he is licensed, running more power than is legal for the frequencies in use, the laundry list is very long.

 

[Dilldog]

Motorola actually markets an entire line of FRS/GMRS radios. There is quite a bit of overlap with FRS and GMRS on the simplex side. Honestly the only difference is GMRS allows for repeater use and some channels allow for 5, 25, or 50watts.
At any rate All Boafengs are FCC approved, under section 90, which is not the amateur section. Therefor for amateur use they are technically not legal. A radio needs to have a type approval for the bands you are going to operate on and that fits with your license. For amateur use that would be type 97 (amateur service) and 95 (GMRS).

 

[donmontalvo]

Advocating the use of Baofeng UV5R on GMRS frequencies, using equipment outside of the bands in which he is licensed, running more power than is legal for the frequencies in use, the laundry list is very long.

I haven't seen any of his old videos, but the most recent videos stress compliance with FCC Part 95.

Not trying to defend the guy, but some URLs would be helpful, I mean to be fair to the guy.

Rugged Radios gets thrown under the bus a lot, because of their recent non compliance (marketing, non-approved devices, etc.).

They've cleaned up their act and now only sell FCC approved devices, and their marketing aligns with the regulations.

Maybe I'm getting old, turned 60 last week, but I'm a believer in giving everyone a fair shake, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Dilldog]

I haven't seen any of his old videos, but the most recent videos stress compliance with FCC Part 95.

Not trying to defend the guy, but some URLs would be helpful, I mean to be fair to the guy.

Rugged Radios gets thrown under the bus a lot, because of their recent non compliance (marketing, non-approved devices, etc.).

They've cleaned up their act and now only sell FCC approved devices, and their marketing aligns with the regulations.

Maybe I'm getting old, turned 60 last week, but I'm a believer in giving everyone a fair shake, that's all I'm saying.

I wouldn't run anything from Rugged, they are Boafengs with a HUGE mark up that aren't as useful (locked to non amateur use frequencies), complete waste in my opinion.
If you want to run 2m/70cm radios, seriously just get your ticket, then you can buy a higher quality radio for cheaper (basic Yaesu or Icom for sub $150) that will actually do something...

 

[donmontalvo]

I wouldn't run anything from Rugged, they are Boafengs with a HUGE mark up that aren't as useful (locked to non amateur use frequencies), complete waste in my opinion.
If you want to run 2m/70cm radios, seriously just get your ticket, then you can buy a higher quality radio for cheaper (basic Yaesu or Icom for sub $150) that will actually do something...

Well, the Rugged Ridge GMR25/GMR2 are GMRS radios, so they have to be locked to non-amature (non-HAM) frequencies.

I think we might be conflating GMRS with HAM?

 

[M Rose]

I haven't seen any of his old videos, but the most recent videos stress compliance with FCC Part 95.

Not trying to defend the guy, but some URLs would be helpful, I mean to be fair to the guy.

Rugged Radios gets thrown under the bus a lot, because of their recent non compliance (marketing, non-approved devices, etc.).

They've cleaned up their act and now only sell FCC approved devices, and their marketing aligns with the regulations.

Maybe I'm getting old, turned 60 last week, but I'm a believer in giving everyone a fair shake, that's all I'm saying.

i havent watched any of his videos since he was getting in trouble with the FCC. as I was looking for the specific videos todday, I notice he has pulled them all down.

you need to reed up on FCC compliance a FCC sticker doesn't mean a product is within compliance. Part 15, Part 95 and Part 97 certified is what we need to worry about.

Part 95 E (GMRS):
§ 95.1761 GMRS transmitter certification.

(a) Each GMRS transmitter (a transmitter that operates or is intended to operate in the GMRS) must be certified in accordance with this subpart and part 2 of this chapter.

(b) A grant of equipment certification for the GMRS will not be issued for any GMRS transmitter type that fails to comply with the applicable rules in this subpart.

(c) No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with a frequency capability not listed in § 95.1763, unless such transmitter is also certified for use in another radio service for which the frequency is authorized and for which certification is also required. No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with the capabilities to operate in services that do not require equipment certification, such as the Amateur Radio Service. All frequency determining circuitry (including crystals) and programming controls in each GMRS transmitter must be internal to the transmitter and must not be accessible from the exterior of the transmitter operating panel or from the exterior of the transmitter enclosure.

(d) Effective December 27, 2017, the Commission will no longer issue a grant of equipment authorization for hand-held portable unit transmitter types under both this subpart (GMRS) and subpart B of this part (FRS).

(e) Effective December 27, 2017, the Commission will no longer issue a grant of equipment authorization under this subpart (GMRS) for hand-held portable units if such units meet the requirements to be certified under subpart B of this part (FRS).

Referenced from eCFR.GOV​

§ 95.1771 GMRS emission types.
Each GMRS transmitter type must be designed to satisfy the emission capability rules in this section. Operation of GMRS stations must also be in compliance with these rules.

(a) Each GMRS transmitter type must have the capability to transmit F3E or G3E emissions.
(b) Only emission types A1D, F1D, G1D, H1D, J1D, R1D, A3E, F3E, G3E, H3E, J3E, R3E, F2D, and G2D are authorized for use in the GMRS. Equipment for which certification is sought under this subpart may have capabilities to transmit other emission types intended for use in other services, provided that these emission types can be deactivated when the equipment is used in the GMRS.

§ 95.1773 GMRS authorized bandwidths.
Each GMRS transmitter type must be designed such that the occupied bandwidth does not exceed the authorized bandwidth for the channels used. Operation of GMRS stations must also be in compliance with these requirements.

(a) Main channels. The authorized bandwidth is 20 kHz for GMRS transmitters operating on any of the 462 MHz main channels (see § 95.1763(a)) or any of the 467 MHz main channels (see § 95.1763(c)).
(b) Interstitial channels. The authorized bandwidth is 20 kHz for GMRS transmitters operating on any of the 462 MHz interstitial channels (see § 95.1763(b)) and is 12.5 kHz for GMRS transmitters operating on any of the 467 MHz interstitial channels (see § 95.1763(d)).
(c) Digital data transmissions. Digital data transmissions are limited to the 462 MHz main channels and interstitial channels in the 462 MHz and 467 MHz bands.

The above is very important because talking about Baofeng and Rugged Radios, transmit at a 25kHz which may not sound like a lot, but is way outside the tolerance for GMRS

Part 95 B § 95.561 FRS transmitter certification.

(a) Each FRS unit (a transmitter that operates or is intended to operate in the FRS) must be certficated for use in the FRS in accordance with this subpart and subpart J of part 2 of this chapter.

(b) A grant of equipment certification for the FRS will not be issued for any FRS transmitter type that fails to comply with all of the applicable rules in this subpart.

(c) A grant of equipment certification will not be issued for hand-held portable radio units capable of operating under both this subpart (FRS) and under any other subparts of this chapter (except part 15) if the application for such grant is filed on or after December 27, 2017.

Referenced From eCFR.GOV​

Part 97 Amature Radio Transmitter Certification- NA because Amature Radio Operators are allowed to build and test their own radios, so no Part certification is required.

RUGGED RADIOS only have 2 Part 90 certified radios. which is in the business and commercial bands so unless you either have a business/commercial band license or amature radio license you cant operate a Rugged Radio legally... hence @Dilldog saying they are locked makes these radios useless. the Radio still must mete part 95 E certification Specs to be able to broadcast legally. and yes Rugged, Woxun, TYT, and a few others are just rebranded Baofeng Radios. Some just have better quality control than Baofeng, and a couple (Woxun and TYT) have gone and filed for and got the FCC certification for part 90, 95, and part 15.

Baofeng Radios only have the UV5G certified for GMRS Use... all other Baofeng radios have a fake part 90 certification sticker.

Well, the Rugged Ridge GMR25/GMR2 are GMRS radios, so they have to be locked to non-amature (non-HAM) frequencies.

I think we might be conflating GMRS with HAM?

The Rugged Ridge GMR25/GM2 might be locked and advertised as GMRS Radios, but they lack the part 95 E certification. hence again @Dilldog was not getting GMRS and ham mixed up, because again there is no part certification under the FCC rules for amature radio equipment to be used.

I purposefully didn't get into Part 15 or part 97 because the pertain to Amature radio use (part 97) and how to test your equipment (part 15).

Don, I also can't find you in the FRN Database... do you even have a license?

 

[donmontalvo]

i havent watched any of his videos since he was getting in trouble with the FCC. as I was looking for the specific videos todday, I notice he has pulled them all down.

Ah, ok, I'm guessing that NotARubicon, like Rugged Radios, may have made mistakes and corrected himself.

From the videos I watched, I think he is a positive influence on folks entering the GMRS space. I kind of wish he’d tone down the “sad HAM” humor.

The Rugged Ridge GMR25/GM2 might be locked and advertised as GMRS Radios, but they lack the part 95 E certification.

I confirmed before purchasing the kit that both devices are FCC Part 95 compliant.

I know they were cited in the past for marketing claims and non FCC compliant devices.

Don, I also can't find you in the FRN Database... do you even have a license

It would be nice if Overand Bound could provide a GMRS call sign field under our Profile.

My GMRS profile is in my signature below, but here is the search lookup:

WRJJ303

I plan to study for my HAM license over the Winter. No real need for it right now.

Almost all the folks I wheel/overland with use GMRS, though a few are still using CB. None of them use HAM (yet).

I know when I go on my 2022 trip there’ll be folks with HAM, hope to be ready by then.

 

[donmontalvo]

GMRS hand held radios are in the 5-10w range

If a GMRS hand held transmits 10w, it is not FCC Part 95 compliant.

 

[M Rose]

If a GMRS hand held transmits 10w, it is not FCC Part 95 compliant.

Yup your correct… GMRS Hand Held can’t exceed 5 watts, so like I initially said, get a GMRS mobile radio for the rig, and get a couple of FRS radios to hand out to those that aren’t licensed, and you can legally communicate with each other. The down side is… the person with the HT might be able to hear the Mobile Radio, but the person with the mobile won’t be able to hear the HT if the distance becomes to great, or there is a physical barrier between the two (talking about a mountain top or such).

So I did a little more digging into Rugged Radios and here is what I found out.

A) they (FCC Certified 95E and 95J) are indeed rebranded TYT radios (you can find this information from the application to certify with the FCC for the model of radio you are wanting to purchase for GMRS or FRS use)

B) only 8 models made for Rugged Radio are FCC certified (go here)

While searching for FCC compliment GMRS Radios I found a lot of non compliant radios on the market being advertised as GMRS radios. So do your homework, especially on the hand held radios as they exceed the maximum 5 watts (which is why I thought 10 watt max because most are 8 watt with 2dbi antenna gain which makes them 10 watts).

Lastly @donmontalvo you can add your GMRS call sign under Ham Call Sign in your profile… most people either add GMRS as a prefix or don’t worry about a prefix because GMRS Call signs are different format than amateur radio call sign formatting.

For more discussion (because I’ve been reading some very conflicting information)

A radio marketed and sold as a GMRS radio that has the ability to operate outside of the GMRS frequency range is illegal to use unless you have an armature radio license. So this got me to thinking… if the person operating this radio has both a GMRS license and a Amateur Radio license, the GMRS frequencies have the power levels locked within their specified power levels that can’t be unlocked without the use of an external programmer, why would this be illegal?

Any ways, just a thought I had (and one I’m going to be emailing my ARRL Section manager)

 

[donmontalvo]

A radio marketed and sold as a GMRS radio that has the ability to operate outside of the GMRS frequency range is illegal to use unless you have an armature radio license.

I believe the device would not be FCC Compliant if that is technically possible.

why would this be illegal?

I’ll take “Is it because FCC makes the sausages?” for $100, Alex. :)

 

[M Rose]

I believe the device would not be FCC Compliant if that is technically possible.



I’ll take “Is it because FCC makes the sausages?” for $100, Alex. :)

The device would not be part 95 compliant, however in the FCC part certification rules, it clear states except “Amature Radio Service”…

see rule 95E subsection C

. (c) No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with a frequency capability not listed in § 95.1763, unless such transmitter is also certified for use in another radio service for which the frequency is authorized and for which certification is also required. No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with the capabilities to operate in services that do not require equipment certification, such as the Amateur Radio Service.

EDIT: never mind… I reread the subsection and it’s specifically using Amateur Radio Service as an example of non-certified equipment. So in other words a person could make a GMRS/Marine transceiver and get it certified by the FCC.

 

[Dilldog]

Well, the Rugged Ridge GMR25/GMR2 are GMRS radios, so they have to be locked to non-amature (non-HAM) frequencies.

I think we might be conflating GMRS with HAM?

I'm not confusing GMRS with HAM, just running a locked out over priced radio is not my thing is what I was getting at. You can buy similar quality GMRS radios from the likes of Midland for about half the price. Also the radios I first encountered from Rugged were actually on non amateur non GMRS frequencies. They actually run in the commercial range of 2meter and 70cm, making them utterly useless and technically illegal for a consumer, this is what got them into trouble.
Edit to add: I am also aware of the fact that GMRS radios need to be locked out, I also believe they cannot run a key pad as GMRS is 100% channelized.

 

[Dilldog]

...
The above is very important because talking about Baofeng and Rugged Radios, transmit at a 25kHz which may not sound like a lot, but is way outside the tolerance for GMRS
...

To get around that you can switch to narrow band, which makes your band width 12.5mhz. You know just to throw some fuel on the fire, lol.