Help, I have Jeep envy

[jsalbre]

As a recent former Gladiator Mojave owner I have some input on this topic. The Mojave is a bit of a different beast than all the other stock Jeeps. Because of its revised suspension it will happily eat up washboard at 70MPH if you ask it to. My previous Wranglers would kill you if you tried that.

The downside of that magic carpet suspension is it sags badly if you load it up with weight. The counter to that is a set of Airlift bags in the rear springs. They help you keep it level with a bunch of weight in the back and don’t impact the off road handling much when you’re unloaded. However, loading up the back of a Gladiator compromises its higher speed handling quite a bit, as from The factory the Gladiator has a 50/50 weight distribution. A bunch of weight in the back makes it a bit more oversteer-y.

No Gladiator will ever be as quiet on the road as your ZR2. The Mojave has different seats from the other Gladiators and they’re very comfortable, but you’re still sitting on them on top of solid front and rear axles. Driving the thing long distance is tiring.

I traded mine 2 months ago for a new Ram 2500 Rebel. It’s not as happy bombing down rough roads at speed, and it’s longer and wider, but it doesn’t care how much weight I put in the back, it’s quieter on the road than any other car I’ve ever owned (active noise canceling for the win), and I can drive all day long without it wearing me out. I can also load it down with overlanding gear *and* tow my 26’ travel trailer out somewhere to use as a basecamp.

IMHO stick with your ZR2. They’re bad little machines. You’ve already got a Jeep in the family, so it sounds like the two of you can choose the best tool for any particular adventure.

All that said, the vehicle that’s right for you is the vehicle that’s right for *you*. Everyone has different needs and wants. In the end you have to do what makes you the most happy!

 

[orange01z28]

As a recent former Gladiator Mojave owner I have some input on this topic. The Mojave is a bit of a different beast than all the other stock Jeeps. Because of its revised suspension it will happily eat up washboard at 70MPH if you ask it to. My previous Wranglers would kill you if you tried that.

The downside of that magic carpet suspension is it sags badly if you load it up with weight. The counter to that is a set of Airlift bags in the rear springs. They help you keep it level with a bunch of weight in the back and don’t impact the off road handling much when you’re unloaded. However, loading up the back of a Gladiator compromises its higher speed handling quite a bit, as from The factory the Gladiator has a 50/50 weight distribution. A bunch of weight in the back makes it a bit more oversteer-y.

No Gladiator will ever be as quiet on the road as your ZR2. The Mojave has different seats from the other Gladiators and they’re very comfortable, but you’re still sitting on them on top of solid front and rear axles. Driving the thing long distance is tiring.

I traded mine 2 months ago for a new Ram 2500 Rebel. It’s not as happy bombing down rough roads at speed, and it’s longer and wider, but it doesn’t care how much weight I put in the back, it’s quieter on the road than any other car I’ve ever owned (active noise canceling for the win), and I can drive all day long without it wearing me out. I can also load it down with overlanding gear *and* tow my 26’ travel trailer out somewhere to use as a basecamp.

IMHO stick with your ZR2. They’re bad little machines. You’ve already got a Jeep in the family, so it sounds like the two of you can choose the best tool for any particular adventure.

All that said, the vehicle that’s right for you is the vehicle that’s right for *you*. Everyone has different needs and wants. In the end you have to do what makes you the most happy!

How's the 2500 Rebel? I really liked my 1500 version; I just needed something that could do Jeep things

 

[jsalbre]

How's the 2500 Rebel? I really liked my 1500 version; I just needed something that could do Jeep things

It’s great. Obviously it’s an HD truck so it’ll never be as smooth as a half ton, but I’m happy with it, and my 5’2” wife can drive it comfortably.

 

[JackAttack]

IFS dual cab utes, like your Colorado, dominate the Australian 4x4 industry. Jeeps aren't very popular here. In fact the number one sold vehicle in Australia is the Ford Ranger. Take it from us, unless you need the severe approach, departure and break over angles a Jeep provides, you're far better off with the versatility, handling and reliability of the Colorado etc.

 

[MidOH]

You all need to grow up. As adults who take control of transportation machines, we are all tasked with the responsibility of understanding physics (which we are taught in school) and how they affect these machines.

The geometry of suspension, how the center of gravity affects maneuvers at high and low speed, the effects of G-forces around an arc, the distribution of weight across a contact surface... We should all know this stuff, at least in the United States.

I never understood the appeal of long wheelbase vehicles like even single cab, short box compact pick-up trucks. No maneuverability, far heavier than ideal. If you have Jeep envy, it's probably because Jeep became a thing by designing its first military jeep for the specific purpose of doing this kind of stuff.

I'll grant you, the modern Jeep Wranglers (descended from the OG) are a great deal more luxurious and comfortable, and MUCH larger and heavier, but the mechanical design centers on the same concept: effectively harness physics to make a vehicle that can traverse all terrain.

That doesn't mean you have to 24" lift/40"tire/SAS everything. But for your own good, please, people, understand what your vehicle of choice was designed for when you decide to use it for some thing else.

Colorado's are nice machines, but far too heavy, long, and low to take on the kind of angles that a Jeep Wrangler can do. No lift, tires, lockers, or winch will ever make a Colorado's suspension design function the way a Wrangler's does. To accomplish that would require a full custom job and a very in-depth understanding of physics. You would also need to consider the weight range of your finished rig when designing your suspension.

To its credit, the Colorado's off-road prowess is now being adapted for military use, in spite of its long wheelbase. It is a very sophisticated design, and excels at what it was designed to do.

Apples to oranges. No Wrangler will ever lug a basketball hoop like a Colorado can, and no Wrangler will ever ride smoothly. At least, not until they go to IFS.

Short wheelbase doesn't really apply to my needs. I don't see any 2 door jeeps overlanding anymore.

A lifted Taco or Gladiator would work OK for me. But a fullsize on 35's is superior by far, for every trip I'm taking this year.

If you want to drive around in circles on tight trails, that's fine. I'll unload my Drz400s for that. Got rid of my little Jeep, because I was done doing little Jeep things.

While it's going to suck to trade a Zr2 for an expensive Glad Rubicon. I'd do it. A Glad on 37's is a pretty thing.

.....and maneuverability is for noobs. I've done more offroading and travel in DRW trucks than I ever will overlanding.

 

[DintDobbs]

@MidOH You make good points. Stick with what works for you - unironically, I actually do find myself driving in circles, or half-circles at least, on tight trails rather frequently. SWB is indispensable for this.

Maneuverability is for noobs? Why, then, carry scout vehicles? ATV's and bikes need not apply, either way - this conversation is about Jeep envy.

Gladiator Rubicon is a good balance between Jeep advantages and pickup truck advantages, and its popularity is a testament to this. Seems to be the common-sense option for a great deal of our ilk.

@2xcrash Did all of these fellas cure your Jeep envy yet?

 

[MidOH]

Also worth noting, unless trade in on your zr2 is really hot right now, wait for the next jeep to come out with the turbo I6.

There's no hurry since you're already running.

 

[DintDobbs]

So coming back to this topic 6 months later, anybody have new thoughts and considerations? We pretty much covered every thing before; large dimensions (wheelbase included) are good for overlanding but bad for off-roading, straight axles and dependent suspension are good for rocks but bad for sand, and what makes a good off-roader makes a bad tow rig.

I've seen a built Wrangler JLU trying to play in the sand, and drove by in a stock 2nd-gen Explorer on 35 PSI street tires, laughing. Conversely, I've also been pulled out of a ditch by a YJ built for technicals, and he poked some fun at my rig. Didn't envy either for a second, but if we went onto rocks, I'd have been left behind by both.

There's a reason that the 5th-gen 4Runner is a fan favorite in this community; it strikes a good balance between having lots of space for overlanding and being small enough for off-roading, it has enough aftermarket support to tweak it to your specific needs, and it also makes a handy daily driver. But with dimensions edging close to older Land Cruisers, one begins to wonder, why buy a large, heavy, light-duty vehicle when one could buy a large, heavy, heavy-duty vehicle? And at a 40k entry fee, vs. the Wrangler's 31k, it's understandable that many choose the Wrangler.

But envying them? Nah. It will never be a pickup truck, it will never be a good long-distance road vehicle, and it will never take sand like an IFS.

 

[Ethan N]

So coming back to this topic 6 months later, anybody have new thoughts and considerations? We pretty much covered every thing before; large dimensions (wheelbase included) are good for overlanding but bad for off-roading, straight axles and dependent suspension are good for rocks but bad for sand, and what makes a good off-roader makes a bad tow rig.

I've seen a built Wrangler JLU trying to play in the sand, and drove by in a stock 2nd-gen Explorer on 35 PSI street tires, laughing. Conversely, I've also been pulled out of a ditch by a YJ built for technicals, and he poked some fun at my rig. Didn't envy either for a second, but if we went onto rocks, I'd have been left behind by both.

There's a reason that the 5th-gen 4Runner is a fan favorite in this community; it strikes a good balance between having lots of space for overlanding and being small enough for off-roading, it has enough aftermarket support to tweak it to your specific needs, and it also makes a handy daily driver. But with dimensions edging close to older Land Cruisers, one begins to wonder, why buy a large, heavy, light-duty vehicle when one could buy a large, heavy, heavy-duty vehicle? And at a 40k entry fee, vs. the Wrangler's 31k, it's understandable that many choose the Wrangler.

But envying them? Nah. It will never be a pickup truck, it will never be a good long-distance road vehicle, and it will never take sand like an IFS.

This is a tough thread to answer. The only thing I'll say is do you really need the best at anything anyway? Some of the best exploring and sightseeing I've ever done were from a helicopter, but driving is fun in its own way. There's fun to both having a rig that climbs right up a wall, and a rig that needs the perfect line, spinning tires and all.

 

[tjZ06]

So coming back to this topic 6 months later, anybody have new thoughts and considerations? We pretty much covered every thing before; large dimensions (wheelbase included) are good for overlanding but bad for off-roading, straight axles and dependent suspension are good for rocks but bad for sand, and what makes a good off-roader makes a bad tow rig.

I've seen a built Wrangler JLU trying to play in the sand, and drove by in a stock 2nd-gen Explorer on 35 PSI street tires, laughing. Conversely, I've also been pulled out of a ditch by a YJ built for technicals, and he poked some fun at my rig. Didn't envy either for a second, but if we went onto rocks, I'd have been left behind by both.

There's a reason that the 5th-gen 4Runner is a fan favorite in this community; it strikes a good balance between having lots of space for overlanding and being small enough for off-roading, it has enough aftermarket support to tweak it to your specific needs, and it also makes a handy daily driver. But with dimensions edging close to older Land Cruisers, one begins to wonder, why buy a large, heavy, light-duty vehicle when one could buy a large, heavy, heavy-duty vehicle? And at a 40k entry fee, vs. the Wrangler's 31k, it's understandable that many choose the Wrangler.

But envying them? Nah. It will never be a pickup truck, it will never be a good long-distance road vehicle, and it will never take sand like an IFS.

5th Gen 4Runners despite being IFS aren't great in sand. They're too heavy and the V6 is a dog without a ton of RPM. I've run several of my straight axle Jeeps around in the dunes, and they do great. And I know sand. Sand duning has always been one of my main hobbies... I just sold this car:

January 25, 2024

www.youtube.com

The problem with a "built JLU" in the sand is that built JLs are usually on 37"+ tires with heavy bumpers/skids/winch/etc. etc. etc. and at that point the 3.6L V6 needs all the RPM to make it work (just like the V6 in the 5th Gen 4Runners).

But really, how often are Overlanders sand duning vs. how often they're on a technical trail with ruts, rocks etc?

-TJ

 

[DintDobbs]

@tjZ06 Now that sand rail looks like a lot of fun. It also exemplifies the fact that a purpose-built off-roader isn't a comfortable long-distance travel vehicle. And your point about the built JLU is a precise example of the reverse; it was not the only truck stuck in the sand that I passed that day, although it was the most ludicrously configured for driving on sand. A STOCK JL might do a bit better on sand than my rig, but a stock TJ would blow both of them away for its light weight alone.

Envy them for their strengths, not for their weaknesses; but build them exclusively toward their strengths, and you'll lose some of the practicality. 'Tis the nature of the business.

 

[tjZ06]

@tjZ06 Now that sand rail looks like a lot of fun. It also exemplifies the fact that a purpose-built off-roader isn't a comfortable long-distance travel vehicle. And your point about the built JLU is a precise example of the reverse; it was not the only truck stuck in the sand that I passed that day, although it was the most ludicrously configured for driving on sand. A STOCK JL might do a bit better on sand than my rig, but a stock TJ would blow both of them away for its light weight alone.

Envy them for their strengths, not for their weaknesses; but build them exclusively toward their strengths, and you'll lose some of the practicality. 'Tis the nature of the business.

I've driven a stock TJ and a stock JL on sand... I'll take the JL all day long. The 3.6L V6 has much better top end HP than the 4.0L I6 and in sand it comes down to HP and wheel speed if floatation alone won't do it. FWIW a TJR weighs ~3900lbs, a JLR weighs ~4200lbs. Not really a big difference. Going back to the powertrains, I have a 4.0L in my XJ, it would not be my choice for sand.

What the actual truth is, is that sand driving comes down to driver first, and tires second. Just about everything else about the vehicle is a distant 3rd. Seeing a JL stuck in the sand and coming to the conclusion that JLs are bad in sand is just... silly. It's like seeing a Corvette Z06 in the wall at a road course and coming to the conclusion that Z06s are bad on the track.

-TJ

 

[DintDobbs]

@tjZ06 I stand corrected; I failed to specify "tires being equal". Unironically, my best sand-driving experiences were all on road tires, because deep treads tend to dig in loose sand, whereas (dimensions being equal) shallower treads float somewhat better (hence the wide, shallow paddle treads on your sand rail). Sand is always best tackled without losing momentum. Almost all the people I've seen stuck on sand, were stuck because they stopped, including the JLU (which I never insinuated were bad on sand - this rig was waaaay too heavy to be on loose sand, built nearly exactly as you described earlier, plus RTT and Lord only knows how many tons of stuff in the back, and the driver was blissfully ignorant of this until too late, much to my amusement). I respect your experience with both TJ and JL, as well as the fact that you were applying common sense while driving them, unlike the person in the stuck JLU (or the walled Z06). High-end power is not a factor on any of my off-roaders, so I can't comment on that (see end note) - never gone faster than 35 MPH on loose sand. Weight and flotation is all I get, so I'll not pretend my experience applies to high speeds.

As you said, "driver first", the rest mattering less; but 4WD/AWD should be in the mix somewhere, unless using extremely lightweight vehicles such as a sand rail. For your entertainment, I'll include the fact that the ignorant driver in the overweight JLU was also not using 4WD, spinning the rear tires, in spite of signs posted everywhere saying to air down, engage 4WD, and don't stop for any reason. The driver is responsible to make sure that the vehicle is configured suitably for the task at hand. Turning around and going back is a thing.

People envy Jeeps for their potential, and then they buy and build them out to ruin what advantages they had (relatively light weight being one), and then they drive so ignorantly as to leave the potential of the vehicle untouched. I'll drive my barely-street-capable Explorer past the walled Z06 and laugh as loudly as when I drove past the stuck JLU. The car is not what I'm laughing at. (I might check to see if he's OK, too - the JLU driver wasn't at risk of being hurt.)

There are a lot of different physics in play in the operation of a motor vehicle, and even more so when driving on loose terrain. Since you mentioned it, engine/transmission/axle/tire combination (every part of the drivetrain plays a crucial role and makes a difference) is a factor of which many buyers are ignorant when choosing a vehicle for these kinds of things. WHERE you are driving it, and what rules apply, are also a factor in how much of your vehicle's potential you will be legally allowed to unleash. This thread serves to help people to get a better understanding of these things, or at least know what they need to learn more about.

But all of this serves to underscore the silliness of Jeep envy. Jeeps do offer a lot to envy, but learning what makes them enviable, and where they fall short, helps people to make better decisions. Thanks for your experienced input, and kudos for keeping the conversation civil - many people derail this sort of topic.

 

[Christophwest1978]

I’ve owned several jeeps and worked for Chrysler Canada in the past for 17 years as a licensed journeyman. I’ve had 74cj5, 78cj7, 1989 xj 2 door, 1997 zj 6 cylinder, 1998 zj 5.9 limited, 1997 tj, and now a 2021 jlu diesel and a 2022 jt diesel. Loved all of them but these diesels take the cake, lots of low end torque for 37’s way better mileage than any gasser. But in the end it’s personal preference and not what you buy it’s what you build. Saying this I’ve never had issues with my jeeps but being a tech I actually take care of my stuff like no other and upgrade issue areas with better components once they wear out.

 

[MidOH]

I think the diesel is discontinued.

I wouldn't touch one with a DEF system.

Hopefully the new golf ball dimpled pistons work as well as stated, and DEF systems can be eliminated soon.