General Observations about the influx of people to the outdoor world

[MGleim]

Here's a winner from yesterday...SMH

Nothing funnier than watching people get stuck at the entrance to 4x4 Corolla. Its always a treat to see the various inappropriate attempts to hit 12N.

I like this post but I feel like there is a lot of negative judgment against new people trying the outdoors. None of us own the outdoors. It’s good people are getting out, but people need some guidance. Lead by example and just try to walk in other people’s shoes. Be slow to anger and share kind words. It just makes your day better.

 

[CR-Venturer]

There's no doubt that the interest in outdoor activities including overlanding, camping, hiking has seen a dramatic uptick in recent years.

Also, we've seen an uptick in trails, campgrounds and other facilities closing because of poor behavior of the general public abusing these facilities . Like this thread : Lost 5 more formerly awesome camping spots in Colorado...

This past weekend my son and I went camping at a local state park. But this location was actually our 3rd choice of where to go, but the other 2 were already fully booked, which we've never encountered before. But it wasn't a compromise because it is still a very beautiful park, we've just been there somewhat recently and wanted a little change. Even my 16 y/o son said multiple times "What's wrong with people." Friday night there were some young ladies who were up yelling and screaming until 2:00 am, which prompted us to have to call a park ranger, which I've never done before. There was more litter than I've ever seen. when we went on the trails we didn't take a trash bag with us, but we both filled up our cargo pants pockets with trash. Also, just laying in the middle of the trail was a pretty fresh pile of dog crap. Then one of the walking trails had some massive ruts along the side like somebody tried to use them for off-road purposes and I highly doubt they were left by the rangers. I appeared someone was intentionally trying to spray mud and rut the trail up.

Then also I subscribe to this Facebook page Corolla Beach Idiots: Log into Facebook

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I live in the same county as Corolla and I enjoy the beaches, but over recent years just the number of people thinking they can just go out and drive on really soft sand floors me. Not to mention there's no shortage of signage stating 4x4 only, 1/2 ton 4x4's - 20 PSI Max, 3/4 ton 4x4 - 35 PSI Max. Not counting the hundreds of 2wd cars that regularly get stuck. (Which there are some hilarious photos of that and Semi's and other non-appropriate vehicles getting stuck too)

But my point is the vehicles I showed above should be perfectly capable.

But you have these PTA cruiser vehicles that the owner has no clue how to take advantage of the capability of their vehicle and just say oh, I have 4wd I'll go drive on the beach. And they really do dumb it down for you by telling you to air down, yet nobody reads the signs . Now fortunately for me these people get a nice little fine and help keep my taxes low and one of our High Schools top ranked in the country, so begrudgingly I say, "welcome idiots"

All kidding aside the system for enjoying the outdoor is broken. But what is the answer???

Have people take and provide proof of a Tread Lightly! or Leave No Trace knowledge before being allowed access?

I think we have too many laws and regulations as it is. We cant enforce common sense and courtesy.

Right now I'm just relying on hope of one of two things:

1. The pandemic forced some of these people out into the great outdoors and hopefully many of those people discovered it just wasn't their thing and will disappear as quickly as they appeared once things get more back to normal.
2. Those who actually took a liking to the outdoors, learn and grow from their experience becoming better stewards of the outdoors.

The answer is to punish the crime and leave everyone else alone. A problem that goes hand in hand with these idiots you're talking about is lazy, apathetic, incompetent enforcement and government officials who find it easier to punish the innocent by shutting things down rather than actually address the problem individuals and behaviour. We as the community of people who are responsible and who do care need to be very loud and very vocal that we will not tolerate collective punishment against those of us who are respectful and care for the outdoors because of the actions of careless assholes.

 

[2dub]

I feel like there is a lot of negative judgment against new people trying the outdoors.

That is true and I hope some do find a new love for the outdoors. Looking back at some of the stupid things I did in my late teens and twentys "just because I had a 4WD truck" and how I know I'd be scorning someone who did the same stupid things today. And that was the basis of my learning. Make mistakes and then learn just to make new mistakes. Many of those mistakes happened in Corolla.

But it does come down to those 10%ers who just make you wonder.

 

[2dub]

The answer is to punish the crime and leave everyone else alone. A problem that goes hand in hand with these idiots you're talking about is lazy, apathetic, incompetent enforcement and government officials who find it easier to punish the innocent by shutting things down rather than actually address the problem individuals and behaviour. We as the community of people who are responsible and who do care need to be very loud and very vocal that we will not tolerate collective punishment against those of us who are respectful and care for the outdoors because of the actions of careless assholes.

One other thing I noticed on my southwest trip was blatent disregard of posted rules. My son and I did over 60 miles of hiking over our trip and the vast majority of trails have signs stating no dogs allowed. Yet when we went on most of the less remote trails we almost always saw people with their dogs. Only one seemed to be a true service animal. ( I work in HR fulltime and have had more than my share of dealing with service animals vs companion animals/pets) And multiple times we saw piles of dog crap that nobody bothered to pick up.

Then in Arizona where half the state seemed to be on file and they closed all the national forests because of the fires. One place we were able to camp had a million signs no fires allowed. These were also in pictograph form if you were not able to read English. When you checked in they told you no fires allowed. At your camp site they had no fires allowed signs and even taped off the fire pits and grills. Yet some genius decided he still needed to have a fire. And I did notify the Rangers about this and apparent multiple others did too, and we could hear the guy arguing with the ranger about it.

My thought would be no warning in this situation, just kick him out. They didn't.

But I fully agree don't punish those who do it right, punish those who are the abusers. Fine them to the point where they are adequately punnished, but make it a revenue stream for these organizations to be able to take care of these situations. Unfortunately none of these places have either the manpower to have enough people to enforce the rules or unfortunately the backbone to enforce.

 

[Road]

\ A problem that goes hand in hand with these idiots you're talking about is lazy, apathetic, incompetent enforcement and government officials who find it easier to punish the innocent by shutting things down rather than actually address the problem individuals and behaviour.

Unfortunately none of these places have either the manpower to have enough people to enforce the rules or unfortunately the backbone to enforce.

.

Ever walk a park for hours at night with a ranger? Ever see what they have to deal with on a daily basis every frikkin' day of the year that really should not have to be part of their job description, from cleaning up needles to mounds of trash to human shit to belligerent & drunk partiers over-crowding sites? And so much more?

In my experience in national and state parks and BLM and forest lands going back more than 50 years, it's not at all about enforcement officers lacking backbone or being lazy, apathetic, or incompetent. They are most always understaffed and experience turn over because of the above problems. When they make pleas to the state and federal govts for more help and more money to handle things well, THOSE folks deem it too much of a problem, don't see the financial return for providing more funding, so issue close the area orders.

Very unfair for the local enforcement staff to take the heat or be called incompetent.

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[grubworm]

damn...no wonder elon musk is wanting to go to mars....

 

[CR-Venturer]

\ A problem that goes hand in hand with these idiots you're talking about is lazy, apathetic, incompetent enforcement and government officials who find it easier to punish the innocent by shutting things down rather than actually address the problem individuals and behaviour.

Unfortunately none of these places have either the manpower to have enough people to enforce the rules or unfortunately the backbone to enforce.

.

Ever walk a park for hours at night with a ranger? Ever see what they have to deal with on a daily basis every frikkin' day of the year that really should not have to be part of their job description, from cleaning up needles to mounds of trash to human shit to belligerent & drunk partiers over-crowding sites? And so much more?

In my experience in national and state parks and BLM and forest lands going back more than 50 years, it's not at all about enforcement officers lacking backbone or being lazy, apathetic, or incompetent. They are most always understaffed and experience turn over because of the above problems. When they make pleas to the state and federal govts for more help and more money to handle things well, THOSE folks deem it too much of a problem, don't see the financial return for providing more funding, so issue close the area orders.

Very unfair for the local enforcement staff to take the heat or be called incompetent.

.

You seem to have missed where I mentioned "government" officials. Speaking from where I live, lazy and incompetent law enforcement is sometimes part of the problem, for sure, but they are limited in what they can do; politicians are the bigger part of the problem because they aren't allocating the resources or investing in the manpower as they should. Both are part of the issue.

One approach that has seen some great success here in BC has been the government partnering with 4WD Association of BC to allow the latter to take over management of certain rec sites. They've done immense work in keeping them open and in good order, and the community does a good job of encouraging good behavior.

 

[Road]

You seem to have missed where I mentioned "government" officials. Speaking from where I live, lazy and incompetent law enforcement is sometimes part of the problem, for sure, but they are limited in what they can do; politicians are the bigger part of the problem because they aren't allocating the resources or investing in the manpower as they should. Both are part of the issue.

One approach that has seen some great success here in BC has been the government partnering with 4WD Association of BC to allow the latter to take over management of certain rec sites. They've done immense work in keeping them open and in good order, and the community does a good job of encouraging good behavior.

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Yes, I saw it, and said the same thing you are now, though that local enforcement, in my experience over decades, does not deserve to be grouped in and slammed in the same way govt officials are. That's my point.
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[CR-Venturer]

You seem to have missed where I mentioned "government" officials. Speaking from where I live, lazy and incompetent law enforcement is sometimes part of the problem, for sure, but they are limited in what they can do; politicians are the bigger part of the problem because they aren't allocating the resources or investing in the manpower as they should. Both are part of the issue.

One approach that has seen some great success here in BC has been the government partnering with 4WD Association of BC to allow the latter to take over management of certain rec sites. They've done immense work in keeping them open and in good order, and the community does a good job of encouraging good behavior.

.
Yes, I saw it, and said the same thing you are now, though that local enforcement, in my experience over decades, does not deserve to be slammed in the same way govt officials are. That's my point.
.

I would agree with you that government deserves to be slammed much harder. There are a few coppers/rangers/etc. who deserve a swift kick up the ass though. This is coming from a 14 year LE veteran, btw.

 

[Road]

I would agree with you that government deserves to be slammed much harder. There are a few coppers/rangers/etc. who deserve a swift kick up the ass though. This is coming from a 14 year LE veteran, btw.

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True in every profession, and in the case of state, province, or federal park folks, they are often forced because of lack of funding to hire summer help--often college kids--to handle the influx, and those folks are rarely trained enough to handle things. Better funding solves a lot of this, and that starts with the public pressuring their elected officials to fund parks, not ignore them to the point these sorts of problems grow, and closures increase.

I wish more local, state, provincial, and federal govts would join forces with organizations who have what I call low-impact land use and responsible recreation at heart.

 

[CR-Venturer]

I would agree with you that government deserves to be slammed much harder. There are a few coppers/rangers/etc. who deserve a swift kick up the ass though. This is coming from a 14 year LE veteran, btw.

I wish more local, state, provincial, and federal govts would join forces with organizations who have what I call low-impact land use and responsible recreation at heart.

Definitely. I'm a huge supporter and will continue to be a paid member of 4wdABC because as an organization, we walk the walk on these issues. Members have done huge cleanup operations to the point of hauling burnt out hulks of vehicles and trailers out of the bush along with tons of trash. I definitely believe in "be the change you want to see." That's also part of the reason I'm a member of OB - I see a great community here where the majority of members live out the "Leave it better than you found it" mentality.

 

[LONO100]

For anyone blaming "Government officials" (whatever that means) for why the outdoors are getting trashed, please get in contact with your local ranger or Warden and ask them if you can go on a ride along with them for a day. If you think Police and fire fighters are taxed, please try to grasp how much area ONE ranger or warden has to cover and be responsible for. They are also much more likely to come in contact with people who are armed, while in the middle of nowhere with no back up for that matter.

Want to add more rangers and wardens? Well someone's got to pay the price. More taxes? User fees? License fees? I'd be down if it put more rangers out there, more enforcement of the laws and regulations, but then everyone will be complaining about taxes. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's pointless to aim your blame at anyone other than the actual offenders, but like everyone else on this thread has said, nobody owns going outside. Everyone has just as much right to be out there as you do, so let it go. The best thing you can do like many on here have mentioned is try to guide the newcomers, be a solid example and steward of the land. Help pick up the trash you see, and get other to join in. I just bought one of those janitor garbage claws from home depot. I am really trying to push other people I know that go out into the outdoors to purchase a Dometic style cassette toilet instead of digging holes. The cassette toilet has been a real game changer for me and my family, much more convenient that digging holes (especially in the middle of the night for my wife) and much more environmentally friendly. I just dump them when I find a toilet or vault along my travels.

Yes, the influx of people going into the outdoors is frustrating, but just keep in mind that at one point you were once that new guy too.

 

[Chuckem12]

Not sure how many are doing it but, I heard that there are parks, national and state, which are making it mandatory for campers to take a camping course or an OHV course prior to being able to reserve plots. I think its a great idea but am curious as to how it'll be enforced and if everyone in the party will have to comply or just the person registering.

 

[CR-Venturer]

For anyone blaming "Government officials" (whatever that means) for why the outdoors are getting trashed, please get in contact with your local ranger or Warden and ask them if you can go on a ride along with them for a day. If you think Police and fire fighters are taxed, please try to grasp how much area ONE ranger or warden has to cover and be responsible for. They are also much more likely to come in contact with people who are armed, while in the middle of nowhere with no back up for that matter.

Want to add more rangers and wardens? Well someone's got to pay the price. More taxes? User fees? License fees? I'd be down if it put more rangers out there, more enforcement of the laws and regulations, but then everyone will be complaining about taxes. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's pointless to aim your blame at anyone other than the actual offenders, but like everyone else on this thread has said, nobody owns going outside. Everyone has just as much right to be out there as you do, so let it go. The best thing you can do like many on here have mentioned is try to guide the newcomers, be a solid example and steward of the land. Help pick up the trash you see, and get other to join in. I just bought one of those janitor garbage claws from home depot. I am really trying to push other people I know that go out into the outdoors to purchase a Dometic style cassette toilet instead of digging holes. The cassette toilet has been a real game changer for me and my family, much more convenient that digging holes (especially in the middle of the night for my wife) and much more environmentally friendly. I just dump them when I find a toilet or vault along my travels.

Yes, the influx of people going into the outdoors is frustrating, but just keep in mind that at one point you were once that new guy too.

Here's what tends to happen in these situations.

A small number of total sh** heads who have no consideration for anyone but themselves come into an outdoor area and cause major damage/leave trash everywhere/crap on the ground and don't bury it/vandalize things etc.

Law enforcement officials do nothing about this because of a combination of factors including lack of proper staffing/resources, and sometimes simply because it's hard to catch these dirtbags and they just don't want to deal with it, or they don't feel like enforcing penalties when they do catch them. Yes, of course, most LE are hard working good people - I am one, so clearly I don't have an anti-LE bias here, but because I am one, I also know that there are some lazy sods who are just out there to collect a pay cheque and just don't care.

Politicians/bureaucrats who are responsible for the area in question don't want to spend the resources and brain power necessary to address the actual issues and deal with the problem people, because that's hard and it's just much easier to shut everything down.

The aforementioned sh**heads just move on to somewhere else and keep doing the same thing because nobody is holding them accountable and making them pay for their actual wrong doing. They just keep on keeping on, and the people who actually suffer from all these are people like us who care and actually work hard to make things better.

Obviously this is a big picture view that involves some generalizations, but I think you'll find this generalization is largely true.

It doesn't have to involve higher taxes, fees etc. Believe me when I tell you the amount of money wasted by governments due to inefficiency/incompetence/stupidity/waste on stupid useless pet projects is sickening. There is plenty of revenue already; the problem is governments pissing it away instead of using it wisely. I know this from an inside perspective having worked for the feds since 2002. Actually punishing the offenders with heavy fines will add more revenue, which will help the situation.

In addition to education (useful for people who are ignorant but not selfish a-holes) and hard work by organizations like OB and 4WDABC, we also need to hold politicians and LE's feet to the fire and state very clearly that the "shut everything down" approach is simply not acceptable. We who bust our butts to keep the back country clean and cared for should not tolerate some dirt bag politician simply shutting things down because that's the lazy way out. If covid has shown us anything, it's that governments and their officials are way too big for their britches and it's way past time we the people yanked their leash HARD and gave them the boot up the ass they have so richly earned so that they remember that they work for us and not the other way around. Basically, we have to make it more painful, costly and difficult for officials at every level not to do the right thing rather than to just shut things down and lock the public out of public land.

The hard work put in by groups like 4WDABC pays major dividends because it lends a lot of credibility when they raise their voice and demand action from governments. We as the majority of off responsible road and back country enthusiasts need to make our voice heard loud and clear to these people in saying NO to collective punishment.

 

[grubworm]

There are some excellent points being made here and it is nice to see passionate folk on here who do care and think about things outside of themselves...

No matter the problem, MONEY is usually the answer. Years back, LSU spent over 100 million dollars renovating the stadium on campus. 100 million dollars to just renovate. Why? Because it makes money. I went to a sold out game once where there was over 90,000 people paying at least $30-40 a seat. If a state or national park made that kind of revenue, you would probably see some wonderful things happen. Since that is not reality, the other option is to lobby...which also takes money to do. The NRA was as successful as it was because they formed an organization and brought in money thru membership fees and merchandise as well as donations. A lot of the money went to lobbying, which is the only way to get the attention of our elected officials. Just look at Monsanto and Pfizer and like companies that spend hundreds of millions on lobbying and campaign contributions to get what they want.

Tax money is not the problem. The news recently covered the covid relief bill earlier this year where included was millions of dollars of tax money going to Pakistan for gender studies. That one item alone would have gone a long way in shoring up some of the problems with the state and national parks in our own country. If there was a voice to lobby on behalf of the parks, I'm sure tax money would find it's way there as it does with everything else.

So, if someone was really serious about keeping public lands open, it would take forming an organization (strength in numbers) and bringing in income that would allow that voice to be heard thru the lobbying machine. There have been numerous organizations and coalitions that have done that on a smaller, state level and had a few victories...many short lived. Unfortunately, we do live by the Golden Rule where he who has the gold, makes the rules...and there just isn't much gold to be found when it comes to public lands used for recreation.

And yes, litter is a problem, but not THE problem. Has anyone seen Bourbon Street after Mardi Gras? The streets are literally covered in filth and garbage and crews are out there cleaning up. Why? Because the filth is generated by tourists that are bringing in huge amounts of money and the locals are too busy counting their money to be upset by something as inconsequential as litter. I know I've done my part in "hosing off" parts of the sidewalk there...

 

[MGleim]

I feel like there is a lot of negative judgment against new people trying the outdoors.

That is true and I hope some do find a new love for the outdoors. Looking back at some of the stupid things I did in my late teens and twentys "just because I had a 4WD truck" and how I know I'd be scorning someone who did the same stupid things today. And that was the basis of my learning. Make mistakes and then learn just to make new mistakes. Many of those mistakes happened in Corolla.

But it does come down to those 10%ers who just make you wonder.

We’ll be out in Corolla 2nd week of August, probably going to Kayak up the sound to some of the islands if you want to meet up.

 

[MOAK]

There is

I will disagree once again plenty of senior citizens have traded in their homes for an expensive rv, and without a home what are you? I've seen tons of younger vanlife folks who have no physical address just a po box somewhere. This is nothing new just more of them out there. Just like everything else there are different levels you can be homeless and still have income and have things car, food,clothes etc. When you see someone living on the streets how you'd traditionally think of homeless they are at the bottom of the barrel. They got hooked on drugs or their life plan went to shit. Just because it don't fit your narrative of what a homeless person is don't mean they aren't homeless.

There is a huge difference between “ choosing” to be homeless, ( which isn’t really being homeless ) and being homeless. Let’s not try to varnish the meaning of a word. A lifetime ago, I was homeless. Not long, as I used public bathrooms to stay presentable and after 6 months landed a job. I had a backpack, the old frame type, a sleeping bag and some extra clothing. Don’t sit at your keyboard and equate people that choose to be nomads with people that are indeed homeless.

 

[MOAK]

Same is t

We have the same issue here in Australia - the price of 2nd hand 4WDs has gone through the roof, caravan and campertrailers have gone through the roof, purchasing a new 4WD has wait lists of 6 + months, all the popular (easy to get to) campsites / grounds are are full and this is all due to Covid

Idiot behaviour and incidents involving inexperienced 4WDvers / campers has gone through the roof

Sadly with our borders closed for international travels it isn't going to get any better

However, on the upside, once international borders open for travel all the bogans (our version of a redneck) and others will head back overseas so in a couple of years there will be a whole lot of cheap 4WDs, caravan, campertrailers and camping equipment on the market and the prices will be really cheap so I am hanging for the borders to open and international travel to restart so I can get some cheap gear

On the plus side, while all the popular spots are full or the remote locations are near empty because people are scared to go remote

Karl

Same is true here. We do go remote, as remote as is possible in the lower 48. In the 3 areas we have traversed in the past year we encountered less than 10 people besides family, while covering well over 700 miles of remote tracks. Here is but one example and this was during “ busy season “. We encountered only one other vehicle the entire 70 mile trek. Most people are not at all comfortable with being out & away from the masses, so, they stick to all the easy to access popular trails & spots.

 

[Boostpowered]

There is

There is a huge difference between “ choosing” to be homeless, ( which isn’t really being homeless ) and being homeless. Let’s not try to varnish the meaning of a word. A lifetime ago, I was homeless. Not long, as I used public bathrooms to stay presentable and after 6 months landed a job. I had a backpack, the old frame type, a sleeping bag and some extra clothing. Don’t sit at your keyboard and equate people that choose to be nomads with people that are indeed homeless.

I won't argue with the semantics. I Call it how I see it.

 

[CR-Venturer]

Same is t

Same is true here. We do go remote, as remote as is possible in the lower 48. In the 3 areas we have traversed in the past year we encountered less than 10 people besides family, while covering well over 700 miles of remote tracks. Here is but one example and this was during “ busy season “. We encountered only one other vehicle the entire 70 mile trek. Most people are not at all comfortable with being out & away from the masses, so, they stick to all the easy to access popular trails & spots.


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Fantastic! What a shot. I have to agree with you about going remote in the bush - I love getting way out where people never go. It's an awesome feeling, and it definitely adds to the excitement of the trip, especially when you know the bears are all around you lol