Forcing users to use the app to access rally points and agree to location permissions

[K1mj]

I found out today that the Rally Points are no longer accessible on the web. You can only access them on the app and the app only works if you agree to location permissions. At least this is how it is on Android now.

To me this is unacceptable.

You can simply design around it by providing an option of general location independent experience with an option to put in a zip code to see what's going on around you.

As an experienced UX designer, an avid outdoor enthusiast and an OB member since 2017, I am very disappointed in the app but have been using it patiently despite all the shortcomings. I have been putting up with the app despite it's horrible user experience, many bugs and super slow loading times but this is the last straw for me.
So until this is fixed, I'm going to uninstall and stop using it.

Rally Points are one of the most important features of OB and it's what brings people into our community. There is no reason to force location sharing to users unless you are basing your entire business model on capturing user's location data.

 

[highboy4x4]

I found out today that the Rally Points are no longer accessible on the web. You can only access them on the app and the app only works if you agree to location permissions. At least this is how it is on Android now.

To me this is unacceptable.

You can simply design around it by providing an option of general location independent experience with an option to put in a zip code to see what's going on around you.

As an experienced UX designer, an avid outdoor enthusiast and an OB member since 2017, I am very disappointed in the app but have been using it patiently despite all the shortcomings. I have been putting up with the app despite it's horrible user experience, many bugs and super slow loading times but this is the last straw for me.
So until this is fixed, I'm going to uninstall and stop using it.

Rally Points are one of the most important features of OB and it's what brings people into our community. There is no reason to force location sharing to users unless you are basing your entire business model on capturing user's location data.

I am not sure you will get a response from OB on this topic
but you bring up good, valid points. Unfortunately we will never know what/how they are using our data. The minutia of a privacy policy is muddled at best and used only for legal means, not user data protection. We all know that across the board, data equal money and our information is sold continuously. So yes I am not a fan of location tracking or third party anything. Every app/program on my devices have non essential setting off. As a retarded, I mean retired IT security guy, I block so much on my UniFi prosumer home system and my mobile devices when out and about that I willingly suffer through the milliseconds of delay to run the checks. Latency doesn’t bother me if I know the reason for it!

My attitude is this. Hackers and company’s will try everything to find a vulnerability, so why make it easy for them… lock it down!

 

[ThundahBeagle]

I am not sure you will get a response from OB on this topic
but you bring up good, valid points. Unfortunately we will never know what/how they are using our data. The minutia of a privacy policy is muddled at best and used only for legal means, not user data protection. We all know that across the board, data equal money and our information is sold continuously. So yes I am not a fan of location tracking or third party anything. Every app/program on my devices have non essential setting off. As a retarded, I mean retired IT security guy, I block so much on my UniFi prosumer home system and my mobile devices when out and about that I willingly suffer through the milliseconds of delay to run the checks. Latency doesn’t bother me if I know the reason for it!

My attitude is this. Hackers and company’s will try everything to find a vulnerability, so why make it easy for them… lock it down!

The answer as to why I dont have the app

 

[Corrie]

Hi there! OB Co-Founder here. Thanks for being here and thanks for the feedback about RP and the app. We listen to every word of it.

An update on previous talking points:

1. We are rebuilding RP and the Map for browser and will have a more specific timeline for launch in the next week.
2. The latest version of the app addresses loading time and squashes bugs. The next build will go live once QA is completed.
3. The forums and the app are advertisement free. Our community is not a product and your data and location is not a product. fwiw - I sat in a business meeting with a representative for a major auto company who was incredulous about OB not running ads or collecting data to sell ads. He visibly recoiled and said we were missing a huge opportunity.
4. Here's a summary of our privacy policy and how we use locations.

1. Location data is collected because it is core to the service
Our Privacy Policy explicitly states that:

• “The Services deal with location, so in order to work, the Services need to know your location.”
• Location is determined via:
  • Your mobile device (GPS / background location)
  • Your browser (e.g. latitude and longitude)

This is functional necessity, not optional enrichment.
2. How location data is used
Location data is used to:

• Tailor the service to your current location
  (e.g. showing nearby locations or members)
• Enable core app features such as:
  • Recording tracks
  • Navigation
  • Member check-ins
  • Locating your vehicle during navigation
• Send notifications related to nearby member activity

3. Background location use
The policy explicitly discloses that the app uses background location for service operation, including:

• Notifications of member check-ins near you
• Navigation and vehicle location

This disclosure is important from an app-store compliance standpoint and it is present.
4. Sharing of location data

• Location data is NOT shared with others by default
• Location is only shared if the user explicitly saves it, such as:
  • Saving a recorded track
  • Setting a Base Location in their profile

This is an opt-in disclosure model, not passive sharing.
5. Third-party sharing

• Personally identifiable information (including location tied to identity):
  • Is shared only for legal, fraud prevention, or investigation purposes
  • Is not shared for marketing purposes

I'm here to answer questions and provide updates. Feel free to shoot me a DM.

 

[highboy4x4]

Hi there! OB Co-Founder here. Thanks for being here and thanks for the feedback about RP and the app. We listen to every word of it.

An update on previous talking points:

1. We are rebuilding RP and the Map for browser and will have a more specific timeline for launch in the next week.
2. The latest version of the app addresses loading time and squashes bugs. The next build will go live once QA is completed.
3. The forums and the app are advertisement free. Our community is not a product and your data and location is not a product. fwiw - I sat in a business meeting with a representative for a major auto company who was incredulous about OB not running ads or collecting data to sell ads. He visibly recoiled and said we were missing a huge opportunity.
4. Here's a summary of our privacy policy and how we use locations.

1. Location data is collected because it is core to the service
Our Privacy Policy explicitly states that:

• “The Services deal with location, so in order to work, the Services need to know your location.”
• Location is determined via:
  • Your mobile device (GPS / background location)
  • Your browser (e.g. latitude and longitude)

This is functional necessity, not optional enrichment.
2. How location data is used
Location data is used to:

• Tailor the service to your current location
  (e.g. showing nearby locations or members)
• Enable core app features such as:
  • Recording tracks
  • Navigation
  • Member check-ins
  • Locating your vehicle during navigation
• Send notifications related to nearby member activity

3. Background location use
The policy explicitly discloses that the app uses background location for service operation, including:

• Notifications of member check-ins near you
• Navigation and vehicle location

This disclosure is important from an app-store compliance standpoint and it is present.
4. Sharing of location data

• Location data is NOT shared with others by default
• Location is only shared if the user explicitly saves it, such as:
  • Saving a recorded track
  • Setting a Base Location in their profile

This is an opt-in disclosure model, not passive sharing.
5. Third-party sharing

• Personally identifiable information (including location tied to identity):
  • Is shared only for legal, fraud prevention, or investigation purposes
  • Is not shared for marketing purposes

I'm here to answer questions and provide updates. Feel free to shoot me a DM.

@Corrie, thank you for the tactful and detailed response. It is much appreciated. For clarity, I believe that you and @Michael have excellent intentions when you look at the service you provide. Most if not all non technical users are oblivious to the backend requirements or maintenance of servers or web/app development. With that said, I say thank you.

Sometimes I wish I did not know the technical aspects and I could just be a blind user, clicking everywhere and believing in auto-magic.
Keep up the good fight, protecting your user base, as us automatons try to grasp the concept of expectation management.

 

[Corrie]

There is much to distrust in the digital world, especially when community, location and social tools are involved. I get it.

All I can say is there is no moustache twirling on our end. We do everything we can to make sure members who joined before July 2020 and only paid once continue to get access to services that require monthly and annual costs to maintain.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Hi there! OB Co-Founder here. Thanks for being here and thanks for the feedback about RP and the app. We listen to every word of it.

An update on previous talking points:

1. We are rebuilding RP and the Map for browser and will have a more specific timeline for launch in the next week.
2. The latest version of the app addresses loading time and squashes bugs. The next build will go live once QA is completed.
3. The forums and the app are advertisement free. Our community is not a product and your data and location is not a product. fwiw - I sat in a business meeting with a representative for a major auto company who was incredulous about OB not running ads or collecting data to sell ads. He visibly recoiled and said we were missing a huge opportunity.
4. Here's a summary of our privacy policy and how we use locations.

1. Location data is collected because it is core to the service
Our Privacy Policy explicitly states that:

• “The Services deal with location, so in order to work, the Services need to know your location.”
• Location is determined via:
  • Your mobile device (GPS / background location)
  • Your browser (e.g. latitude and longitude)

This is functional necessity, not optional enrichment.
2. How location data is used
Location data is used to:

• Tailor the service to your current location
  (e.g. showing nearby locations or members)
• Enable core app features such as:
  • Recording tracks
  • Navigation
  • Member check-ins
  • Locating your vehicle during navigation
• Send notifications related to nearby member activity

3. Background location use
The policy explicitly discloses that the app uses background location for service operation, including:

• Notifications of member check-ins near you
• Navigation and vehicle location

This disclosure is important from an app-store compliance standpoint and it is present.
4. Sharing of location data

• Location data is NOT shared with others by default
• Location is only shared if the user explicitly saves it, such as:
  • Saving a recorded track
  • Setting a Base Location in their profile

This is an opt-in disclosure model, not passive sharing.
5. Third-party sharing

• Personally identifiable information (including location tied to identity):
  • Is shared only for legal, fraud prevention, or investigation purposes
  • Is not shared for marketing purposes

I'm here to answer questions and provide updates. Feel free to shoot me a DM.

Thank you @Corrie
All good information

 

[OTH Overland]

Hi there! OB Co-Founder here. Thanks for being here and thanks for the feedback about RP and the app. We listen to every word of it.

An update on previous talking points:

1. We are rebuilding RP and the Map for browser and will have a more specific timeline for launch in the next week.


Three thumbs up for item #1 lol ... Event & Trip planning on the desktop has and always will be my preferred method over an app! Much appreciated that you guys are not abandoning it. Thank you!

 

[Corrie]

@OTH Overland Dave! Hello to you and Michelle, and great to hear such strong feedback. Noted!

 

[K1mj]

Hi @Corrie

Thank you for your reply and the information provided.
I love OB, and have always enjoyed sharing the trails with like-minded folks that I have met here over the years.
I do believe that you and Michael have good intentions at heart and have done a great job so far at putting your members first.
Thank you for building such a great community.

That being said, as a professional in this field, I respectfully don't agree with all the points you shared.

I'm not convinced that you cannot provide the Rally Points feature without location permissions.

Please see my specific responses bellow:

1. Location data is collected because it is core to the service


Our Privacy Policy explicitly states that:

• “The Services deal with location, so in order to work, the Services need to know your location.”
• Location is determined via:
  • Your mobile device (GPS / background location)
  • Your browser (e.g. latitude and longitude)

This is functional necessity, not optional enrichment.
It is not a necessity. Only part of your services need location to work. Viewing rally points does not need user's location. User can easily filter by region to view rally points in their area (and your app can easily remember these settings) or even manually enter a zip code.
So you can easily provide this service without location permission. At best, you can ask for location permission as an option for this feature but I see no reason to block off users from rally points if they don't agree to location sharing.

2. How location data is used
Location data is used to:

• Tailor the service to your current location
  (e.g. showing nearby locations or members)
• Enable core app features such as:
  • Recording tracks
  • Navigation
  • Member check-ins
  • Locating your vehicle during navigation
• Send notifications related to nearby member activity

Respectfully, I don't think any of these are core features of your app. To the best of my knowledge these are new features, not sure if they are functional yet.
Personally I have never used OB app to record tracks or navigate. And those two are the only ones from your list that actually need location sharing, the rest can be easily done with manual zip code input.

3. Background location use
The policy explicitly discloses that the app uses background location for service operation, including:

• Notifications of member check-ins near you
• Navigation and vehicle location

This disclosure is important from an app-store compliance standpoint and it is present.
Notification of member check-ins can also be done with manual zip code entry. At best you can ask for general location permission for this feature as an option, but there is no need for precise location data.


4. Sharing of location data

• Location data is NOT shared with others by default
• Location is only shared if the user explicitly saves it, such as:
  • Saving a recorded track
  • Setting a Base Location in their profile

This is an opt-in disclosure model, not passive sharing.


5. Third-party sharing

• Personally identifiable information (including location tied to identity):
  • Is shared only for legal, fraud prevention, or investigation purposes
  • Is not shared for marketing purposes

 

[roots66]

I just wish we could still create/edit rally points on the web as it's so much easier to use a 42" computer monitor and real keyboard than a phone screen.

 

[El-Dracho]

I just wish we could still create/edit rally points on the web as it's so much easier to use a 42" computer monitor and real keyboard than a phone screen.

Yes, indeed it is easier on a bigger screen. And as @Corrie mentioned above, the team is currently rebuilding Rally Point and the OB Map for webbrowser.