Yep.
The authors of "The Millionaire Next Door" have published another book, "The Millionaire Mind". Both are good reads.
In one of their books they come to the conclusion that "these people buy their cars by the pound." I love it.
Does a good 4WD vehicle have to be expensive?
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The authors of "The Millionaire Next Door" have published another book, "The Millionaire Mind". Both are good reads.
In one of their books they come to the conclusion that "these people buy their cars by the pound." I love it.
Traveler III
To go back to the subject of 4wd's, I do think it's really lamentable the direction that most 4wd vehicles in the NA market have tended to go, namely more expensive, more luxurious, more inaccessible. To me it doesn't make a lot of sense to take what at their core are rough, tough, highly capable off road machines and tart them up with all kinds of gizmos, leather seats, wood trim and such,and then slap an absurdly expensive price tag on them.
I wish someone made a bare bones, rugged, highly capable off road machine for the NA market at an affordable price point. It will be interesting to see if the new Ford Bronco will be that or not.
I wish someone made a bare bones, rugged, highly capable off road machine for the NA market at an affordable price point. It will be interesting to see if the new Ford Bronco will be that or not.
Doubt we will ever see a "bare bones, rugged, highly capable off road machine for the NA market at an affordable price point" in our lifetime, especially if it's made in the US. From what I've read and heard the base price on the new Bronco is going to push $35k. Still cheaper than buying a vintage one.
Have you noticed the price of just about any name brand 4x4, pre computer, is going rather high now? LR, IH Scouts, Broncos, Blazers, Jeeps and LCs just to name a few. The prices have jumped so high that I couldn't afford to buy the Rover I have - in the condition it was in at the time - if I were to try and buy it today.
Unfortunately, "overlanding" is becoming more and more of a rich mans sport, just like it was in the early years.
Traveler III
At least 35 is somewhat affordable. 50 to 60k like a lot of jeep and 4runners are is really getting a bit crazy.
It's at the point now, because so many of the old 4wd's I would consider buying are getting so long in the tooth, that I wouldn't buy them even if I could afford them. The exception might be the Cherokee XJ - they are a fantastic mix of affordable and capable. I may possibly end up hunting for a low kms old lady driven example. That would be excellent.
It's at the point now, because so many of the old 4wd's I would consider buying are getting so long in the tooth, that I wouldn't buy them even if I could afford them. The exception might be the Cherokee XJ - they are a fantastic mix of affordable and capable. I may possibly end up hunting for a low kms old lady driven example. That would be excellent.
I have a 91 Xj and love it. It has been great. One thing I would advise is that you look at the 95-99 with 98-99 being the best to go with. Those two years you would only need to lift it gear/lockers to the tire size and outfit it to your liking. My Xj is a 5spd tranny and I am considering looking into getting one with a auto-tranny down the road.
I disagree. The older ones are generally a lot easier to work on - less complicated systems, especially electronics - to work on. General the parts are still available and easy to source and generally cheaper than modern equivalents.
As long as they are maintained they work great, no different than needing to maintain more modern rigs.
The best example I can give, to the chagrin of my father, brother and father-n-law, is this. I have a '63 SIIa 88 Rover. It's engine is the original 2.25l 4-cylinder. At the time my brother's truck was a big honkin' heavy duty Chevy 4x4, dad's was a Chevy extended cab heavy duty work truck, the father-in-law's was the lightest of the three but still a heavy duty extended cab Nissan.
The father-in-law and I had rented a rather large cherry picker to to trim some trees at his place and ours. The first night we had it at our place there was a freak rainstorm and were the thing was parked became a bog. Along with that the tires were up against a slight rise in the yard (almost like a tall sloping stairstep, about half the height of the cherry picker's tires).
My father-in-law hitched it to his truck; it barely moved and just wedged the tires closer to the slope.
We contacted my father and be brought his truck over. Same scenario.
My brother was about to go off duty at the local firehouse so we contacted him. He came by with his truck, the biggest of the three. It's been heavily altered because it was used as a first responder unit as well (small towns can get by with this).
We were all surprised when his rig didn't pull it out. His actually wedged the tires worse AND tore up my yard.
At this time the three of them were discussing alternatives, such as a local tow truck as well as pulling it the other direction.
I suggest the Rover - and they laughed. They said it was too old and too under powered.
While they continued debating what to do I got Grover and hitched the thing to him.
While hitching it up they scoffed.
Before I continue... the Rovers have a "high" gear and "low" gear. In low gear you're automatically in 4x4 (just need to lock the front hubs). You can also go into 4x4 while in high gear. Back when Grover was made there was an option available that most civilian Rover owners didn't opt for but Grover had - a lower gear gearbox. Basically, Grover's "high" gear was the equivalent of the standard "low" gear. These gearboxes were intended for the military or for heavy duty civilian use and were popular with the long range overlanding/expedition crowd. For the time period they weren't cheap.
Anyway, I locked the Warn hubs and put Grover in low gear. I could feel when the cherry picker's tires made contact with the slope; there was a slight hesitation and then the sucker rolled up that slope as if it weren't there.
My father, brother and father-n-law just stood there gobsmacked.
Long story short...old doesn't necessarily mean long in the tooth.
Pathfinder I
For what it’s worth, I ordered an ‘18 T4R OffRoad Premium exactly how I wanted it with KDSS & a sunroof and paid <$40K all in(sales tax, delivery, etc.). The used ones have crazy high resale but anybody paying over 40 is doing so because they are impatient.
Traveler III
In general terms, I would agree with you. What I was more referring to is mechanical breakdowns like crumbling gaskets, belts, hoses, engine wear, etc. Buying used, it's difficult to know for sure how well taken care of a rig is. My V, for example, has CV axles that are getting a bit oozy around the boots. No cracks or breaks in the boots so far, which is amazing, but definitely they're looking like they're getting worn. I have a spare driver's side in my garage and the replacement passenger side is pretty cheap, but time is a precious commodity for a dad who's the sole breadwinner and has 5 kiddos lol. It would be nice to not have to worry about all the little bits that are getting worn out, even if replacing them is fairly easy.
In terms of capability and design, I would take older rigs over newer ones hands down, as a rule. As you say, simpler, and usually more rugged and built for off-roading than the mostly potato cars they're pushing out now.
I love that your Land Rover triumphed where huge pickups failed lol Gearing makes a huge difference, that's for sure.
In terms of capability and design, I would take older rigs over newer ones hands down, as a rule. As you say, simpler, and usually more rugged and built for off-roading than the mostly potato cars they're pushing out now.
I love that your Land Rover triumphed where huge pickups failed lol Gearing makes a huge difference, that's for sure.
Member III
I bought 4 Jeeps (MJ, XJ, TJ & LJ) for about the same price as my wife paid for a slightly used Hyundai Santa Fe. They are my only vehicles and they're all daily drivers. I've worked on all of them but they were all in great condition when I got them. The Santa Fe is nice ... but I would have preferred a 5th Jeep. lol
Traveler III
I find that Jeep "wranglers" are super overpriced where I live, but Cherokees are highly affordable. They don't seem to carry the hype surcharge that the TJ's and others do.
Member III
I totally agree with this. I bought my MJ & XJ for less than I paid for my LJ. The 2 older vehicles were actually in better shape.
Okay, I see what you're getting at now. You are correct about seals, hoses and such, the get old and crumble.
This was one of the main reasons I've undertaken the rebuild/refurbishment. There were issues with all of that as well as some other mechanical and safety issues. All, and I mean ALL, seals, gaskets hoses, electrical wiring, and such have been, or are currently, being replaced with new.
I've never been a mechanic. I was one of those guys who knew how to add gas and oil and sometimes do an oil change or replace sparkplugs. Part of the bargain I made with SWMBO in order to buy the Rover was that I would become a mechanic. This rebuild/refurbishment has been my classroom. It's embarrassing to admit how long it's been torn apart, yet I can proudly say I've done 85 to 90% of the work. I've had a few people provide hands-on help so I don't kill myself or really screw something up. Ive also had a ton of online help. It should be ready to roll by summer. We've tested the engine a few times in the past two weeks - that's a HUGE step - it became a family event.
It has taken so long to do this - years in fact - simply because I'm learning as I go. Basically, if something would take a competent mechanic a week to finish it will take me much longer. It took me 3 months to rebuild the transmission, yet now I could do it in a couple of days.
My personal experience is another reason why I encourage people new to this hobby, especially if they have limited or no mechanical experience, to go with the older, simpler rigs. If I can learn to do it anyone can.
Member III
I personally have always (until now) had only old vehicles with high miles on them already when I bought them. I usually am able to get a vehicle for pretty darn cheap with easy to fix problems (makes them even cheaper) with about 150k mi on them. Drive them for a good while to usually around 250k mi and then sell them for just a few grand less than I bought them for. They usually look and run like new when I sell them though (which requires work). I would feel guilty selling something that has trouble in it's future to someone.
My last vehicle was a 05' Crew Cab Chevy Colorado. I bought it @ 164k for $6,900. Threw about $700 worth of parts at it to get everything working right, replace all wear items, and get the fuel economy back up. After that I only did brakes and tires before I sold it about 100k miles later. Sold it for $5k to a nice old man that was excited about it.
Once you learn what items are "wear items" they are usually pretty darn easy to keep reliable regardless of brand. With all of the online forums these days you can look up and know problem areas on any vehicle as well. One of my main rules is I just purchase all pulleys, belts, water pump, thermostat, upper/lower rad hoses, alternator, etc. when a vehicle hits 150k and slowly change them out over the next 20k miles (or all at once). Things like U-joints, CV joints, wheel bearings, and ball joints start making noise on their way out and I will only change them as that happens.
Not having a vehicle payment can enable a person to put an emergency fund into their bank that can be used on new engines/transmissions, emergencies while on trips, and home AC units that fail/etc.
There are folks out there with well over a million miles on their vehicles. As long as it keeps meeting your needs there is no reason to change the vehicle.
My personal rules are... (you can figure out your own)
1. Just keep the rust off of it and don't wreck it.
2. Keep up on maintenance.
3. Only make upgrades you actually need.
4. Only purchase a vehicle that has mass-produced parts so they will be easily available for decades.(The Samurai in the original video may have hard to find parts)
5. Only buy new if it is the cheaper/better route And you know you will be with that vehicle for a very long time.
My last vehicle was a 05' Crew Cab Chevy Colorado. I bought it @ 164k for $6,900. Threw about $700 worth of parts at it to get everything working right, replace all wear items, and get the fuel economy back up. After that I only did brakes and tires before I sold it about 100k miles later. Sold it for $5k to a nice old man that was excited about it.
Once you learn what items are "wear items" they are usually pretty darn easy to keep reliable regardless of brand. With all of the online forums these days you can look up and know problem areas on any vehicle as well. One of my main rules is I just purchase all pulleys, belts, water pump, thermostat, upper/lower rad hoses, alternator, etc. when a vehicle hits 150k and slowly change them out over the next 20k miles (or all at once). Things like U-joints, CV joints, wheel bearings, and ball joints start making noise on their way out and I will only change them as that happens.
Not having a vehicle payment can enable a person to put an emergency fund into their bank that can be used on new engines/transmissions, emergencies while on trips, and home AC units that fail/etc.
There are folks out there with well over a million miles on their vehicles. As long as it keeps meeting your needs there is no reason to change the vehicle.
My personal rules are... (you can figure out your own)
1. Just keep the rust off of it and don't wreck it.
2. Keep up on maintenance.
3. Only make upgrades you actually need.
4. Only purchase a vehicle that has mass-produced parts so they will be easily available for decades.(The Samurai in the original video may have hard to find parts)
5. Only buy new if it is the cheaper/better route And you know you will be with that vehicle for a very long time.
Influencer I
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Im with you. Im still holding out for someday getting my hands on a 73-91 Suburban, only thing I care about is a good frame and clear title. Everything else is within my abilities to repair. That is the mind set and skill set you need to have to make the oldies worth it, otherwise they are more expensive than new rigs. That said I tend to avoid anything that is early electronic. For me I either want full electronic control, or full mechanical, its the half and half that really gets frustrating.
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Autism Family Travels
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Enthusiast III
No. a good 4wd vehicle does not have to be expensive. I bought my escape, which I am enjoying a lot, for 3000 plus tax. it has less than 100,000 KMs on it. It needs a bit of exhaust work, and my upgrades I want to do. But as it stands right now, I would drive it anywhere.
Those things seem to getting pricey as well. I think I saw 1 come up on "Bring-a-Trailer". My parents had a couple in the 80s, would love to have them again. The first u-joint and starter I ever replaced was on one of those. That's when it was discovered I wasn't meant to be a mechanic.
Member III
Considering the fact you are constantly seeing so many recalls on new rigs and dealing with multiple issues on my forester I'm quite done with newer rigs . Im going back to a dead reliable 22re where i can fix it with a screwdriver and duct tape and everything is dirt cheap .
The more systems/moving parts the more failure modes.
And all these little electronic modules are going to be interesting to try to replace in 20 years or so. I expect availability will be a real issue.
I am even hearing about vehicles being "totalled" on account of the cost of replacing the navigation sysem in the dash. Sounds absurd to me, but evidently those things are anything but universal and are very spendy.
I like my simpler, old stuff. I might be giving up some conveniences and creature comforts, but I have reliability and long-term serviceability. Until the design folks decide that robust and redundant systems are the priority I am not interested in their new gadgets.
There's another aspect of why the pre-computer rigs are becoming more and more popular and rapidly rising in price.
I'm not a tinfoil hat wearing, conspiracy theory nut, doom-n-gloom type person, but I believe in being prepared. Hell, overlanding can be considered a dress rehearsal for when/if the SHTF.
Think about how many movies have been coming out about the end of the world, or an EMP, or nukes or even a zombie apocalypse. Some of these events have even been making headlines and the various emergency services/managment groups have even been prepping a practicing more often.
The word is definitely out that pre-computer vehicles have a much better chance than more modern ones (unless they've been altered). Many of these vehicles (especially those that don't use fuel injectors) can even run on dubious conditions of fuel. My Rover can even run on moonshine! It's not recommended for any length of time, but it can.
So basically...I think the possibility of TEOTWAWKT is playing a part.
I actually know of people who are stockpiling parts for their rigs just as much as they are food, meds and ammo.
I'm not a tinfoil hat wearing, conspiracy theory nut, doom-n-gloom type person, but I believe in being prepared. Hell, overlanding can be considered a dress rehearsal for when/if the SHTF.
Think about how many movies have been coming out about the end of the world, or an EMP, or nukes or even a zombie apocalypse. Some of these events have even been making headlines and the various emergency services/managment groups have even been prepping a practicing more often.
The word is definitely out that pre-computer vehicles have a much better chance than more modern ones (unless they've been altered). Many of these vehicles (especially those that don't use fuel injectors) can even run on dubious conditions of fuel. My Rover can even run on moonshine! It's not recommended for any length of time, but it can.
So basically...I think the possibility of TEOTWAWKT is playing a part.
I actually know of people who are stockpiling parts for their rigs just as much as they are food, meds and ammo.
Pathfinder I
