Are newer vehicles preventing you from choosing them for overlanding due to complexity?

[Matt Hixson]

Wired had an interesting article about how high-tech cars are killing the auto repair shop.

Got me thinking about how this applies to overlanding and how to do repairs yourself, or at a local shop, far from a brand approved mechanic or official dealership.

I like my '96 Hummer with the GM 6.5TD, but there are people in the Hummer community who complain about all that newfangled computerized stuff on the turbo engine and prefer the 6.2 or 6.5 NA just because of their simplicity.

Just wonder if this issue factored into your decisions about your overland rig.

Cheers!
-Matt

 

[4x4tripping]

I did use something like an Lexus LX570 for travelling.

The fear that those compurized stuff will fail - is a fear. It can happen, it doensnt have to happen.

The first full electric car allready did cross africa over the west.

The fearless travellers are travelling with more comfort, I would say ;-)

trippin

 

[reaver]

It's an interesting question.

My overland build is a 2003 Nissan Xterra. I chose this vehicle for ALOT of reasons, but the primary ones are:

• Cost
• Reliability
• Durability
• Simplicity

Is this the answer for everyone? No. Is it better because it's old, super reliable, and tough? Of course not.

But, IF something goes wrong on the trail, there's a good chance it can be diagnosed with a simple obd2 scanner, and fixed with basic hand tools, provided I have the parts on hand.

So there's something to be said about simplicity and lack of all the computer controlled components.

 

[smritte]

I have off road remote camped my whole life. I worked as a tech professionally from 79-05, then I started teaching it. This is why I own a 96 vehicle. Its new enough to have the better tech and easy to work on but old enough that very few things will leave me stranded. My 2019 Tacoma is only used for DD and short trips. Discontinued parts on the even older vehicles make me shy away from them. The aftermarket parts industry is horrifying in itself. I cant count how many issues I've diagnosed from faulty aftermarket parts. Anything that can leave me stranded (including brake parts) are all OE. I wont go down the rabbit hole describing all the issues I've seen. I'll be here all day just highlighting them.

"IF" the person actually has the skill to diagnose an issue with any computerized vehicle, do they keep a factory shop manual with them. This is another issue most don't realize. The difference between factory and aftermarket (Michell, all data, Chilton..) is huge. Not being at a dealer anymore has shown me how little info is kept in them. Aside from all that, where are you going to get a late model manual? I have the factory manuals on my cruiser in hard cover and in PDF. The PDF is in my tablet.


Over the years I found when it comes to off road vehicles, people fall into three categories.
1. Buy old and drive it till it dies.
2. Buy old and dump a ton of money into it so its in the same or better shape than new (think stronger parts). This is where I am.
3. Keep buying new vehicles so you don't have to worry about it.

Most people who buy the older vehicles and drive it till it dies have never been really stranded and/or ruined everyone's trip because now the group has to drag your POS back to the highway and wait until your safely towed away. I have been scorned by people because of how much I invest in my older vehicles making them dependable.
The buy old "Carburetor" group never had a carb crap out on a hill. This was one of the biggest reasons I will never go back to them. I do love the simplicity of them as long as your on moderately flat ground, not bouncing too bad and don't make a huge elevation change.

I personally will not off road with any older vehicles unless I know their kept up. I also hate having to be the one fixing them for others on the trail. I was one of the tech guys and trail leaders for several off road events spanning three decades. Most of the issues I helped with were due to lack of maintenance or back yard hack mods.

I truly believe most should own newer vehicles. As long as they maintain them, they don't need to worry about anything vehicle wise.

 

[itsoutside]

Yes, 100%. My wife drives a new bmw and I can barely figure out how to put it in park, haha. It's a computer on wheels, and I'm bad with computers

 

[Cascadia]

I have been overlanding my '14 Outback since 2019. For the most part, it has not prevented me from overlanding even though it is a bit of a computer on wheels. With the transmission, I just need to watch the temperature levels since it has a CVT. Only one time, I gave a warning and I just needed to pull over into a shaded area and turn off the car to allow it cool down. With 104k miles on the car, I am still on the original transmission.

 

[oldsoldier181]

Oddly, this is a debate brought up in the motorcycle world as well. Some of us travel on bikes, and the debate between reliable modern tech, and old school ease of shadetree mechanics, comes up often.
I think a big part of this is driving something that is easily fixed in the field, and/or has easily accessible parts. There is only so much one can do out in the field, before you need professional help. I think that the biggest tools to carry are a cell phone and credit card, to be honest.
We are limited by space. We can only carry so many tools and spare parts. What we break in the field-flat tires, suspension, superficial stuff that dont affect the driveability-are all fairly simple with hand tools and some assistance from others. At least enough to get it to where it can be towed, hopefully.
I think choosing reliable vehicles, and a strong aftermarket support network (as well as a cell phone and CC) are the best remedies for any big issues that come up.

 

[Tundracamper]

My main purchase decision back in 2019 was based on reliability, which I feel is directly proportional to complexity. While my 4Runner has all sorts of do-dads, it was well behind the curve on what others offered at the time. I know Toyota does not put something on there unless they feel it is reliable. Almost four years in and I have yet to have a warranty repair - knock on wood.

 

[rtexpeditions]

On the whole, the computerised parts are exceptionally reliable.
I decided to go with a newer vehicle simply because it wasn't worn out, and parts are easier to obtain. I still run two older vehicles but sometimes they get stranded, for weeks or months, if something breaks.
Personally, I've never had a problem, but the computers seem to be over cautious telling you there is something wrong whereas with an older vehicle that would be ignored until substantial damage is done.
I carry a full computer interface in my kit, which is more than just a code reader.
It can tell me if the fault is a don't go further or I can drive to a workshop problem.
I carry the PDF's of the full maintenance manuals.

 

[WanderingFisherman]

Here is a 2007 F350 6.0 diesel engine. They were not very reliable. I bought with 98000 miles and had minor problems until 179000 miles when an injector failed. I am currently $10K+ and 4+years in Bulletproofing the engine myself because I have the skills and knowledge to do so but very little time. I had to cancel a major family back country get together due to this. I continued part of it on 7 cylinders because it was an electrical failure of the injector and not mechanical which would have meant a tow to prevent diluting the lube oil with fuel and total destruction of the engine. I had electronic diagnostic tools and had head gasket removal and replacement parts including one injector and $1000+ in parts on board the vehicle at the time. If you know the older rigs you can maintain and make them reliable yourself. If you do not have the knowledge and skills to maintain the newer vehicles the best thing in my opinion is to keep a newer vehicle with lower milage. Buy the full shop manual for $500+. They are mostly pdf files or a USB stick from the dealer. Go on line and see what the most common failures are and stock the spare parts on board. Many times it is a sensor. You need to have the spares with you. Buy a code reader and learn how to diagnose using the tool. Learn the basic function of your engine and other systems such as brakes, steering, transmission, drive lines, and axles. This will also save you a lot of money. Most engines have info on line so you can see the basic function of how they work. If you do not do this and carry tools you will be stranded until someone comes by and helps. I have been stuck for over a day until someone was able to pull me out of some mud because a drive line u-joint snapped. Keep U-joints and the tools to repair. If you have a newer Jeep you are out of luck. Convert to a standard drive shaft and u-joint. Keep brushes or other parts for your winch if you have one. If you can travel in groups. As a seasoned overlander I know that most of the time we are on our own. It is what we like to do. Take care and try to prepare. Be prepared for a extended hike out for help. Remember that you may be hiking in bear country and be prepared. I have had to hike 14 hours before one way and have done my best to be prepared ever since. The return trip carrying a new tire and wheel was an adventure and taught me that one spare tire may not be enough. If you own a vehicle there is a massive amount of info on line about it. Before you take it 55 miles east of Escalante Utah or other remote place, LEARN YOUR VEHICLE.

 

[MOAK]

I have a 96 80 series because I can diagnose it & do the work on it if necessary. Because it is fuel injected, not carberated, and because it is extraordinarily comfortable. I’m perfectly comfortable at the end of the day having sat behind the wheel for 10-12-14 hours. I’ve had one breakdown in 10 years, entirely my fault as I ignored a heater core leak for 2 years, it finally gave way and we were at the mercy of a shop in a small town in the Midwest. The core had to be sent to Chicago to be rebuilt. Lesson learned, don’t ignore the smell of anti freeze in the cabin.
Would I consider an older vehicle for doing what we do? Only if it is a solid axle coil sprung machine. Solid axles? They are simple to maintain, much easier to work on and are superior off highway. Leaf springs? Are way too rough of a ride for my wife and her C2-3-4 degradation issues. In fact, our 80 series is way more comfortable on a long trip than her RAV4. Would I purchase new? No, not ever. I can’t work on em, my mechanic friend can’t work on em, and way too expensive. I could refresh my entire drivetrain, get a really nice paint job and install Scheel-Mann seats for way less than the cost of a new vehicle.

 

[reaver]

I have off road remote camped my whole life. I worked as a tech professionally from 79-05, then I started teaching it. This is why I own a 96 vehicle. Its new enough to have the better tech and easy to work on but old enough that very few things will leave me stranded. My 2019 Tacoma is only used for DD and short trips. Discontinued parts on the even older vehicles make me shy away from them. The aftermarket parts industry is horrifying in itself. I cant count how many issues I've diagnosed from faulty aftermarket parts. Anything that can leave me stranded (including brake parts) are all OE. I wont go down the rabbit hole describing all the issues I've seen. I'll be here all day just highlighting them.

"IF" the person actually has the skill to diagnose an issue with any computerized vehicle, do they keep a factory shop manual with them. This is another issue most don't realize. The difference between factory and aftermarket (Michell, all data, Chilton..) is huge. Not being at a dealer anymore has shown me how little info is kept in them. Aside from all that, where are you going to get a late model manual? I have the factory manuals on my cruiser in hard cover and in PDF. The PDF is in my tablet.


Over the years I found when it comes to off road vehicles, people fall into three categories.
1. Buy old and drive it till it dies.
2. Buy old and dump a ton of money into it so its in the same or better shape than new (think stronger parts). This is where I am.
3. Keep buying new vehicles so you don't have to worry about it.

Most people who buy the older vehicles and drive it till it dies have never been really stranded and/or ruined everyone's trip because now the group has to drag your POS back to the highway and wait until your safely towed away. I have been scorned by people because of how much I invest in my older vehicles making them dependable.
The buy old "Carburetor" group never had a carb crap out on a hill. This was one of the biggest reasons I will never go back to them. I do love the simplicity of them as long as your on moderately flat ground, not bouncing too bad and don't make a huge elevation change.

I personally will not off road with any older vehicles unless I know their kept up. I also hate having to be the one fixing them for others on the trail. I was one of the tech guys and trail leaders for several off road events spanning three decades. Most of the issues I helped with were due to lack of maintenance or back yard hack mods.

I truly believe most should own newer vehicles. As long as they maintain them, they don't need to worry about anything vehicle wise.

This is something most people don't think about.

When I bought my Xterra, it was in pristine condition (minus a sagging headliner, which I still haven't got around to fixing), and had 26 pages of service records dating back to 2003.

I was able to confirm that the timing belt was done, and at what milage.

I carry a pdf copy of the factory service manuals on my tablet, which lives in the vehicle.

I also carry an obd2 reader, along with a suite of tools for pulling codes, and looking at real-time info.

Oil changes every 3-5k (depending on what I'm doing). Battery stays on a maintainer over the winter, and lots of preventative maintenance and upgrades.

As a matter of fact, I'm swapping the radiator for one designed for the supercharged Xterra today, as well as adding an auxiliary transmission cooler, as I've started pulling my off road trailer with it, and want a little piece of mind that the transmission stays nice and cool.

In the spring, it's getting all the fluids swapped out, new distributor and wires, and having the timing belt done. I'll address any other issues as well, since I'll be doing my first 10 day trip next year, and I want it to be in perfect mechanical order.

It's only failed to start once since I've owned it, and that was due to a dead battery in a grocery store parking lot (on the way to a trip) . I carry a jump pack, and was able to quickly diagnose the battery was the culprit, jump it, and immediately head to the nearest auto parts store for a new battery.

 

[smritte]

I'm swapping the radiator for one designed for the supercharged Xterra today, as well as adding an auxiliary transmission cooler, as I've started pulling my off road trailer with it,

If you can, add in a trans temp gauge. There's a few good ones out there that mount the senor in the pan or inline to the cooler. On my TJ, Jeep didn't seem to understand trans temp. It was common to run temps as high as 260 on flat ground and I could hit 300 with my 35's pulling a 1200 lb trailer. It took three coolers to bring the temp into a respectable range.

 

[reaver]

If you can, add in a trans temp gauge. There's a few good ones out there that mount the senor in the pan or inline to the cooler. On my TJ, Jeep didn't seem to understand trans temp. It was common to run temps as high as 260 on flat ground and I could hit 300 with my 35's pulling a 1200 lb trailer. It took three coolers to bring the temp into a respectable range.

I plan on having a sensor mounted in the slew of work I'll be having my mechanic do. I went through the same issue with my 04 Colorado. I was able to monitor the temp via torque and an obd2 reader. Took upgrading the cooler twice to get it down around 170 on flat ground.

 

[Murphy Slaw]

Now that I'm so old, if the wife's new Forester Wilderness won't easily make it, I'm probably not gonna tackle it.

Age sneaks up on you.

 

[bgenlvtex]

No, not at all.

Computers are pretty reliable, code readers are inexpensive and prolific, most parts are plug and play. Who wants to give up fuel injection, and automatic transmissions that are reliable? I can build a carburetor in my sleep, you have to ask "Why?"? LOL, because they are shit and require work to keep them running. My last trip included time below sea level and time at 14k asl, go ahead try that with a carbureted engine, you'll have the breather element off regularly and enjoy your 7mpg . My ZF transmissions sneer in the general direction of the TH350/400, C6, 727A, the very best of the automatic transmissions of yore were garbage by comparison. 1 horse power per cubic inch in the 70's was a radical engine with a relatively short lifespan, every grocery getter on the planet is producing more than that today, and people complain on the internet about them not having enough "power". The highly vaunted and much respected 426 Hemi had HP/TQ ratings that are just about the same as the tamest config of the 6.4l Hemi

Paint, seats,climate control, engines, transmissions, safety equipment, suspensions everything is leaps and bounds better than it was 20 years ago and that improvement is compounded as the timeline moves farther back. Even the plastic parts are vastly improved in both composition as well as execution.

I grew up working on stuff, I've never stopped working on stuff. I'm not going to deny myself the comfort, safety and convenience of new vehicles because I'm intimidated by the complexity of new vehicles.

I have had some classic off-roaders, Blazers, Wagoneer, various pick ups. I sold or gave away every last one of them because I got tired of fixing them, "just drive them and enjoy your day" almost always included lay under them when you got home . I've mulled building a classic with modern drive line and may do that at some point, but my primary travel vehicle will be "new" .

 

[Anak]

Yes.

I do not like the integrated systems. I have read of situations such as the ABS system triggering a fault and then the computer will not allow you to shift into 4wd. That is totally unacceptable in my book. I have also read of folks who have had their computer go into some sort of failure mode that cannot be handled by a code reader, but rather must be addressed by a factory/dealership interface. That is also totally unacceptable.

I like my '96 XJ. From my experience with carburetors I do appreciated the merits of fuel injection, both for reasons of fuel slosh and for altitude compensation. And that is as modern as I am inclined to go. I do not have any desire for any of the newer features. They just look like failure modes to me.

However, it should be noted that I do my own work on my vehicle. I think most folks would have problems trying to maintain that which I maintain. I carry tools and spare parts. I have replaced my CPS (crankshaft position sensor) at the side of the highway. I have replaced my alternator in the driveway of a friend, 1,000 miles from home. I will also note that neither of those failures came with advance warning, and either of those failures could happen to a newer vehicle.

All choices come with their pros and cons, and every individual has a different risk threshold. Everyone needs to make their own decision.

 

[MOAK]

Yes.

I do not like the integrated systems. I have read of situations such as the ABS system triggering a fault and then the computer will not allow you to shift into 4wd. That is totally unacceptable in my book. I have also read of folks who have had their computer go into some sort of failure mode that cannot be handled by a code reader, but rather must be addressed by a factory/dealership interface. That is also totally unacceptable.

I like my '96 XJ. From my experience with carburetors I do appreciated the merits of fuel injection, both for reasons of fuel slosh and for altitude compensation. And that is as modern as I am inclined to go. I do not have any desire for any of the newer features. They just look like failure modes to me.

However, it should be noted that I do my own work on my vehicle. I think most folks would have problems trying to maintain that which I maintain. I carry tools and spare parts. I have replaced my CPS (crankshaft position sensor) at the side of the highway. I have replaced my alternator in the driveway of a friend, 1,000 miles from home. I will also note that neither of those failures came with advance warning, and either of those failures could happen to a newer vehicle.

All choices come with their pros and cons, and every individual has a different risk threshold. Everyone needs to make their own decision.

In the meantime it certainly is nice to be able to exchange ideas without all the drama on a forum like this.

 

[grubworm]

...at least Fords havent changed much...

 

[Alanymarce]

Let's try to simplify this as much as possible:

Old vehicles - if maintained well will be fine BUT stuff wears out so you need to ensure that you can source bits (where can you find a replacement radiator in the Namibian desert? ...how liong do you have wait for a new A/C fan in Bolivia?).

New vehicles - really don't go wrong any more, at least not unless heavily modified. The problems we had with our new X Trail in 11 months around South America were ... none at all (well one problem but it was because the Nissan agent used the wrong alignment specs because the model sold there had different specs). The problems with our new Montero in 10 months around Australia - none at all (well, one 4WD sense quit and was replaced, inexpensive and no effect on the trip). Problems with our 20 year old LC80 in 10 months in Africa - needed a new radiator, new AC fan, new front diff, new hub bearings, new hub...

The other side of the "easy to fix in the bush" advantage is that you need to fix the vehicle in the bush more often - so far our experience with new vehicles is that you don't.