Advocate III
Here’s the before and after drive pics from this week so far:
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Toyota owners, I need your help!
- Thread starter Trigger T4R
- Start date
Traveler III
Advocate III
Alright... thought everything was going good, this weeks trips to work and back had no overflowing but it has been cool weather.
Today we drove to Huntington Beach and when we got there, the reservoir was full to the top but not spilling over. When we got home however, it had overflowed once again! Minor spillage but spillage none the least. Warm weather this time, no ac running the whole trip. What gives, what am I missing?? Something is wrong, I can’t go hit the trails with this problem to worry about the whole time. Any other suggestions?
Here’s the pics from today’s trip:
Before starting this morning
when we got to Costa Mesa
we drove from there to Huntington Beach. This is when we left Huntington
This is what we saw when we got back home
and some pics of the spillage so you can see it’s coming from the reservoir, no leaks anywhere else, no temp increase the whole drive, truck ran just fine.
This is driving me nuts!! I GREATLY appreciate any additional help on this fellas.
Today we drove to Huntington Beach and when we got there, the reservoir was full to the top but not spilling over. When we got home however, it had overflowed once again! Minor spillage but spillage none the least. Warm weather this time, no ac running the whole trip. What gives, what am I missing?? Something is wrong, I can’t go hit the trails with this problem to worry about the whole time. Any other suggestions?
Here’s the pics from today’s trip:
Before starting this morning
when we got to Costa Mesa
we drove from there to Huntington Beach. This is when we left Huntington
This is what we saw when we got back home
and some pics of the spillage so you can see it’s coming from the reservoir, no leaks anywhere else, no temp increase the whole drive, truck ran just fine.
This is driving me nuts!! I GREATLY appreciate any additional help on this fellas.
Advocate III
Member III
Advocate III
Wow... I think I may have just figured out the problem, unfortunately. I just noticed while looking under the hood, that the thermostat they put in my truck IS NOT an oem part. It’s some cheap crap I found on on amazon! My guess is it’s failing, not allowing coolant back into the motor/system. Smh
This shop (which I won’t say by name...unless you want to know) has told me from day one (4 years ago) that they “only use oem parts”, and that that’s why they can offer 3 yr warranties, because they have a “special relationship with the dealers” where they get the parts. What a crock!! Not only that but they charged me double the price for the parts! I am beside myself right now. They have lied to me for 4 years! I just looked at my previous invoices from them and they did the same thing on my valve cover gaskets (which is probably why one failed less than a year later, and they replaced it with the same aftermarket crap the second time!) I am livid right now and can’t wait for Monday so I can go there and...
Well... What’s the best way to handle something like this? Demand they replace the parts with oem for no charge? Demand my money back for all previous services that they lied about? The invoices did list the parts they installed, but I trusted their word and never questioned that the parts weren’t oem until now. What would you do if you were in my shoes?
This shop (which I won’t say by name...unless you want to know) has told me from day one (4 years ago) that they “only use oem parts”, and that that’s why they can offer 3 yr warranties, because they have a “special relationship with the dealers” where they get the parts. What a crock!! Not only that but they charged me double the price for the parts! I am beside myself right now. They have lied to me for 4 years! I just looked at my previous invoices from them and they did the same thing on my valve cover gaskets (which is probably why one failed less than a year later, and they replaced it with the same aftermarket crap the second time!) I am livid right now and can’t wait for Monday so I can go there and...
Well... What’s the best way to handle something like this? Demand they replace the parts with oem for no charge? Demand my money back for all previous services that they lied about? The invoices did list the parts they installed, but I trusted their word and never questioned that the parts weren’t oem until now. What would you do if you were in my shoes?
Traveler III
Advocate III
I have to be honest here and admit my mistake. It seems I have jumped the gun here and I want to rectify my previous post...
Before I explain my ignorance, I’ll recap today...
I spoke with my mechanic for about 40 min. After reviewing what they had diagnosed and how they did it this is what has been done, & this is what was said.
-They did do a hydrocarbon test on the coolant (one at cool temp, one at hot & one in between)... passed all 3 tests and coolant is clean.
-They did check the oil for “milk”... oil was clean
-They did do a “pico” scope check... no leakage found in any cylinders.
-They did do a thermal camera scan on all hoses and radiator... found no cold spots.
-They have inspected the water pump for leaks and fluid coming out of the weep hole indicating failure... found none
-They just replace the 2 front cats(& headers) with oem that I bought from the dealership, while they were off...they found no leakage in those areas.
Okay now for my misunderstanding part...
-They did replace the thermostat with an Aisin THT-003. Which in my ignorance, thought was not oem. After asking him about the part in question, he graciously explained to me that Aisin is the brand that Toyota has make some of their oem parts, similar to what they do with Denso. It just doesn’t have “Toyota” stamped on it like you would get if buying through a dealership. Same part, different name on it. Sooo, I was wrong and I admit it.
At this point, with my foot placed firmly in my mouth, I asked what percentage does he think it’s NOT a blown head gasket given the tests performed and he said 98-99% sure it’s not the HG. He said that it just doesn’t check the boxes and the “Usual situation” math is not adding up. Therefore, it must be an Intermittent anomaly that they just haven’t been able to replicate under shop conditions or short, yet hard, drives. It only seems to happen after about an hour of driving and they needed to drive it longer to figure out the problem.
-So from here, the next test they will do is pull the bottom radiator hose, use a scope to see the water pump impeller & turn the motor by hand and inspect each blade.
After all that, he assured me that they will keep looking until they find the problem (no additional charge) and get it fixed properly. He also said if I wanted the parts to say toyota on them he’d be happy to appease me but may cost a bit more and I agreed to that if necessary in the future.
I feel a lot better about the situation (and my mechanic) after today and I will be taking it in tomorrow for further diagnosis.
I apologize for my jumping the gun and I will be doing my homework before posting from now on. Life’s about learning lessons and I have learned one today!
Advocate III
Explorer I
Well at least you weren't being duped the whole time. I too am no expert but could it be some micro crack in the reservoir near the cap? Considering that the air/coolant has to escape somehow, it's either through the cap from pressure relief from being under high pressure, or out somewhere else like a cracked reservoir. It seems like there shouldn't be any reason it's under enough pressure to trigger the cap to leak, unless you by chance got 2 faulty caps. IDK if it's possible to log the pressure and independent temperature somehow but that would be useful data.
Advocate III
- 5,584
- First Name
- Michael
- Last Name
- Rose
- Member #
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20990
- Ham/GMRS Callsign
- W7FSB
- Service Branch
- US ARMY Retired
I’ve seen this before... a lot of times actually... two things cause your symptoms... one, a blockage in the coolant passages. Two, air trapped in the system... I would go with number two first... open the radiator cap, pop off the heater core return line from the water pump, and then jack up the front of your truck.... next fill the radiator (not overflow bottle) until water pours out of the heater return line... hook the line back up and start the engine with heater on High Hot.. squeeze the upper radiator hose as the engine is running pumping it as if it were a pump until you don’t see any more bubbles (keep adding coolant until the level doesn’t drop in the radiator). Put the rig back on the ground, top of the coolant bottle, and go for a long drive with the heater on high temp (fan can be off).
If you have a blockage this won’t work because coolant won’t come
Back out the heater hose.
Third thing it could be is the thermostat installed backwards.
With the brand new NAPA upper radiator hose I would say the air pocket would be my first thought, and then second thought the thermostat itself.
If you have a blockage this won’t work because coolant won’t come
Back out the heater hose.
Third thing it could be is the thermostat installed backwards.
With the brand new NAPA upper radiator hose I would say the air pocket would be my first thought, and then second thought the thermostat itself.
Traveler III
I asked about the brand specifically for this reason. In the past, I've had customers upset we didn't use OE branded parts. But most manufacturers outsource their part production right from the start. Aisin, Delphi, Denso, and Bosch are all OE depending on the rig. I'm glad they were able to explain their work to your satisfaction.
With all of that stuff you listed out of the way, it's time to get into the nitty gritty. Do you drop off the vehicle to the shop in the same condition you drive it? Specifically I'm asking about tools, cargo, gear, etc. (Total vehicle weight). If transmission temps get a little excessive, the cooler (mounted inside the radiator) can shed enough heat to bump the coolant up to a slight over temp. This can happen if 1) you do not have an external aux trans cooler installed and 2) the transmission is working hard.
Large tires without a gear change, coupled with cargo weight and warm ambient temperatures can quickly over power the capacity for the stock cooling system. Stop and go traffic or vehicle speeds that keep the trans constantly in and out of lockup are the ideal scenario for this sort of condition.
With all of that stuff you listed out of the way, it's time to get into the nitty gritty. Do you drop off the vehicle to the shop in the same condition you drive it? Specifically I'm asking about tools, cargo, gear, etc. (Total vehicle weight). If transmission temps get a little excessive, the cooler (mounted inside the radiator) can shed enough heat to bump the coolant up to a slight over temp. This can happen if 1) you do not have an external aux trans cooler installed and 2) the transmission is working hard.
Large tires without a gear change, coupled with cargo weight and warm ambient temperatures can quickly over power the capacity for the stock cooling system. Stop and go traffic or vehicle speeds that keep the trans constantly in and out of lockup are the ideal scenario for this sort of condition.
Advocate III
Sorry I haven’t been able to reply lately but here’s the final diagnosis:
Mechanic had it for a week and drove it roughly 180 miles and were finally able to reproduce the problem after a long drive & do some more tests. They checked the water pump like I said earlier and found no issues with that. After multiple hydrocarbon tests, it finally showed a failure. They have been and still are baffled as to why it passed so many previously and still can’t definitively see where it’s coming from but here’s a video of the last test that failed after about eight pumps (which it usually doesn’t take that many to show up). There is zero “cleaning” of any cylinders indicating a leak in the head gasket but there is no doubt that exhaust gases are minutely in the coolant. Their best guess is that the leak is so small and we have caught it so early that it only shows up after long drives in hot weather that it’s getting mere fumes at this point. They have never seen anything like this but the proof is right here.
Soo... not the news I wanted to hear, and now I’m faced with decisions I didn’t want to make. Get it fixed, new motor entirely, buy a lower mile 06-09 and swap all parts over, sell and buy a 5th gen?? It would be hard to give this truck up after all invested and I’m doing all the research I can to make the best choice. Thank God I have time on my side and good people to bounce ideas off of here. I am currently gathering all info and options at this point and will decide which route to go soon. I hate having a car payment and it would drain my cash and put me in debt so leaning towards repair. My shop wanted 8k to do it but that’s with a slew of new parts and pretty much a full top end rebuild. Worth it? Can I get away with minimal repair? Will I have problems down the road if I cheap out now? Let me know your perspectives, all your input is valuable to me! I can show you the parts list of what they want to replace if you want to see it and assess.
View attachment trim.DBF78810-51FA-463D-BE4B-819923D7C30A.MOV
Mechanic had it for a week and drove it roughly 180 miles and were finally able to reproduce the problem after a long drive & do some more tests. They checked the water pump like I said earlier and found no issues with that. After multiple hydrocarbon tests, it finally showed a failure. They have been and still are baffled as to why it passed so many previously and still can’t definitively see where it’s coming from but here’s a video of the last test that failed after about eight pumps (which it usually doesn’t take that many to show up). There is zero “cleaning” of any cylinders indicating a leak in the head gasket but there is no doubt that exhaust gases are minutely in the coolant. Their best guess is that the leak is so small and we have caught it so early that it only shows up after long drives in hot weather that it’s getting mere fumes at this point. They have never seen anything like this but the proof is right here.
Soo... not the news I wanted to hear, and now I’m faced with decisions I didn’t want to make. Get it fixed, new motor entirely, buy a lower mile 06-09 and swap all parts over, sell and buy a 5th gen?? It would be hard to give this truck up after all invested and I’m doing all the research I can to make the best choice. Thank God I have time on my side and good people to bounce ideas off of here. I am currently gathering all info and options at this point and will decide which route to go soon. I hate having a car payment and it would drain my cash and put me in debt so leaning towards repair. My shop wanted 8k to do it but that’s with a slew of new parts and pretty much a full top end rebuild. Worth it? Can I get away with minimal repair? Will I have problems down the road if I cheap out now? Let me know your perspectives, all your input is valuable to me! I can show you the parts list of what they want to replace if you want to see it and assess.
View attachment trim.DBF78810-51FA-463D-BE4B-819923D7C30A.MOV
Last edited:
Advocate III
- 5,584
- First Name
- Michael
- Last Name
- Rose
- Member #
-
20990
- Ham/GMRS Callsign
- W7FSB
- Service Branch
- US ARMY Retired
Why a new engine? It’s a small crack in the head... cheaper to buy a head (or even a set of heads) than a new motor. You should be looking at about $1500-2000 to get the job done. You could do it yourself for under a grand.
Traveler III
I tend to ask customers how much they like the rig. Most often, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't, but it really comes down to preference. If you have owned it for most or all of its life, you have the best picture of its upkeep, treatment and maintenance. A used vehicle is a question mark unless you've got receipts.
8k is high, and that's from someone who's in the industry and had done a couple of these. It could very well be the "worst case" (if lady luck kicks you in the veg and you need cylinder heads and such.)
Dont get me wrong, Labor time is no joke and if it's a good shop in California(?) I'd expect close to 200/hr. And I also assume it means water pump, pulleys, timing set, machine shop labor (head refinishing, pressure testing, stem seals), OEM gaskets, and head bolts. But 8k is pretty high. I would expect closer to 4.
To pull the engine and replace it seems excessive. Especially if you've taken care of it. Head gasket leakage doesn't hurt anything of substance unless you've got coolant accumulation in the oil from blow by and wash down. And it definitely isn't close to that by your description. It's only my opinion, but that seems like a waste of cash better spent elsewhere.
We still service the last couple of vehicles we did this job on (both of them 4Runners). One of them has gone over 50k since the repair and has 290-something thousand miles on it. If you take care of it and trust the work, this is just a bump in the road. But in the end it's your choice and your financial decision. No one should make it for you. And theres no shame in whatever direction you go. You do you. Cheers
8k is high, and that's from someone who's in the industry and had done a couple of these. It could very well be the "worst case" (if lady luck kicks you in the veg and you need cylinder heads and such.)
Dont get me wrong, Labor time is no joke and if it's a good shop in California(?) I'd expect close to 200/hr. And I also assume it means water pump, pulleys, timing set, machine shop labor (head refinishing, pressure testing, stem seals), OEM gaskets, and head bolts. But 8k is pretty high. I would expect closer to 4.
To pull the engine and replace it seems excessive. Especially if you've taken care of it. Head gasket leakage doesn't hurt anything of substance unless you've got coolant accumulation in the oil from blow by and wash down. And it definitely isn't close to that by your description. It's only my opinion, but that seems like a waste of cash better spent elsewhere.
We still service the last couple of vehicles we did this job on (both of them 4Runners). One of them has gone over 50k since the repair and has 290-something thousand miles on it. If you take care of it and trust the work, this is just a bump in the road. But in the end it's your choice and your financial decision. No one should make it for you. And theres no shame in whatever direction you go. You do you. Cheers
Advocate III
Man I love the people on this forum!!
Thank you all for the advise!
Here’s the parts list and quote from my shop. They are a great shop and have spent about 3hrs on the phone with me after hours to go through every scenario and possibility of how to approach this repair either with them or another shop even, so the relationship I have with them is very strong and I trust them completely. They have never done us wrong and have always performed impeccable service (6+ yrs). (Even with my questioning of them earlier in this thread, which I stand corrected.)
They include a 3 year warranty with this work and i trust that they will honor it fully for that 3yrs without question (which most shops only offer 1yr and the possibility they they won’t be there or honor their word in the future). I can’t lie, 3 years warranty is very tempting considering it would be hard to get that buying a used car from a dealership. Ultimately there are risks involved in any situation but a repair from this shop is as close as they come to minimizing that risk.
Look this over and let me know if there’s anything on it you see as unnecessary. I will say they up charge their parts by a long shot, I have looked up every part they listed and total came to about $2200 where they are charging over 4K. I understand they have overhead and such, but it is a bit excessive. Again, no other shop would offer that kind of warranty, that’s why I’m considering it. What are your thoughts?
Thank you all for the advise!
Here’s the parts list and quote from my shop. They are a great shop and have spent about 3hrs on the phone with me after hours to go through every scenario and possibility of how to approach this repair either with them or another shop even, so the relationship I have with them is very strong and I trust them completely. They have never done us wrong and have always performed impeccable service (6+ yrs). (Even with my questioning of them earlier in this thread, which I stand corrected.)
They include a 3 year warranty with this work and i trust that they will honor it fully for that 3yrs without question (which most shops only offer 1yr and the possibility they they won’t be there or honor their word in the future). I can’t lie, 3 years warranty is very tempting considering it would be hard to get that buying a used car from a dealership. Ultimately there are risks involved in any situation but a repair from this shop is as close as they come to minimizing that risk.
Look this over and let me know if there’s anything on it you see as unnecessary. I will say they up charge their parts by a long shot, I have looked up every part they listed and total came to about $2200 where they are charging over 4K. I understand they have overhead and such, but it is a bit excessive. Again, no other shop would offer that kind of warranty, that’s why I’m considering it. What are your thoughts?
Traveler III
Yeah, so some of this comes down to "if we're in there, why not replace it". In my experience (and again, I'm a complete stranger on the internet) it's not necessary to replace everything. It does provide a level of assurance, though.
Sidebar:: Parts markup is normal. In my experience, I can purchase parts cheaper online than our suppliers charge the shop. Online retailers cut out some middle men (which happens to be parts stores in this case). And most times, the price the shop receives is considered "wholesale" and is applied without tax. They are willing to pay that price because of the perks they get (hassle free returns and no restocking fees, free delivery, same day delivery, and supplier back warranty and even labor coverage in some cases)
Dont get too hung up on parts prices. Labor rates cover tech's wages, L&I, trainings, certifications, insurance (insurance is a bear in the shop), equipment, etc. Parts markup helps cover bills and subscriptions, service info, office and service staff, etc. And that extra cost you pay gives you a great warranty (3 years in your case; better than industry average btw) as well as the judgement and experience they bring to the job.
The list looks good. I question the need for the radiator (as you said it was replaced a few years ago), vvt solenoids and the cam gears (phasers/actuators). Sure they technically wear, but I've never had to replace any due to wear (only lack of maintenance causing carbon buildup). And the solenoids are easy to replace as they fail. Unless you have noise or codes (or if you've really skimped on maintenance) theres little functional advantage to replacing them.
Maybe ask about those and see if you're happy with the explanation.
The machine shop work seems high, but good shops charge well for their work and without an itemized list of their services, I dont feel confident speaking on the charges.
Edit: it also looks like they have coolant on there twice (totaling 3 gallons)
Sidebar:: Parts markup is normal. In my experience, I can purchase parts cheaper online than our suppliers charge the shop. Online retailers cut out some middle men (which happens to be parts stores in this case). And most times, the price the shop receives is considered "wholesale" and is applied without tax. They are willing to pay that price because of the perks they get (hassle free returns and no restocking fees, free delivery, same day delivery, and supplier back warranty and even labor coverage in some cases)
Dont get too hung up on parts prices. Labor rates cover tech's wages, L&I, trainings, certifications, insurance (insurance is a bear in the shop), equipment, etc. Parts markup helps cover bills and subscriptions, service info, office and service staff, etc. And that extra cost you pay gives you a great warranty (3 years in your case; better than industry average btw) as well as the judgement and experience they bring to the job.
The list looks good. I question the need for the radiator (as you said it was replaced a few years ago), vvt solenoids and the cam gears (phasers/actuators). Sure they technically wear, but I've never had to replace any due to wear (only lack of maintenance causing carbon buildup). And the solenoids are easy to replace as they fail. Unless you have noise or codes (or if you've really skimped on maintenance) theres little functional advantage to replacing them.
Maybe ask about those and see if you're happy with the explanation.
The machine shop work seems high, but good shops charge well for their work and without an itemized list of their services, I dont feel confident speaking on the charges.
Edit: it also looks like they have coolant on there twice (totaling 3 gallons)
Advocate III
- 5,584
- First Name
- Michael
- Last Name
- Rose
- Member #
-
20990
- Ham/GMRS Callsign
- W7FSB
- Service Branch
- US ARMY Retired
Why replace the radiator? It’s hold pressure, I see a whole lot of parts that aren’t 100% needed... why Fel-Pro Head gasket, intake gasket, water pump gasket, exhaust manifold gasket, when the whole set is $300.00 cheaper...
3 years warranty.... that shop (and the shops in your area) are rip offs... when we put a part on, it’s a life time warranty part and we stand behind it for the time you own the rig. The labor is outrageous...let me ring it all up tomorrow, I can’t see it booking out for 16 hours...
3 years warranty.... that shop (and the shops in your area) are rip offs... when we put a part on, it’s a life time warranty part and we stand behind it for the time you own the rig. The labor is outrageous...let me ring it all up tomorrow, I can’t see it booking out for 16 hours...
Advocate III
- 5,584
- First Name
- Michael
- Last Name
- Rose
- Member #
-
20990
- Ham/GMRS Callsign
- W7FSB
- Service Branch
- US ARMY Retired
800 for a set of heads is on the cheap side... just had mine done on my Bronco... it was $1600 to get them each completely rebuilt. Would have cost a little more had their been a crack. I’m still skeptical on the 16 hours.
Traveler III
@M Rose
I agree that 800 is a deal to have heads rebuilt. But I'm not convinced that's what's happening. For a simple head gasket, its really only necessary to pressure test, resurface and install steam seals (since they come with most head gasket sets). I would expect it to be in the 300 range for a pair. But as I said, without knowing what they're doing, its useless for me to assume.
-
Now mechanic advice can get super contentious real fast. This is inevitable, but I'd like to avoid using language that implies malfeasance. Every shop has trained techs who have lived experience and education. There are vastly different views out there depending on where that experience comes from. Everyone has their own "best practices". Mechanics get a bad rap and it's hard enough building trust with customers without other shops actively judging and badmouthing situations they are not a part of for doing things differently than they would. I know shops who would recommend some Blue Devil stop leak to seal up that small leak before it gets worse and save some money. Is that wrong? Not necessarily.
Is there an argument to be had for replacing the radiator?
-Yes, combustion gasses break down rubber and plastic (softening them) and the radiator has plastic tanks.
Would I personally replace this one due to the description you gave us?
-No. I could not justify that to the customer unless there were early signs of failure. (Again, stranger on the internet who has not inspected the radiator in question)
@Trigger T4R
It is perfectly acceptable to question their list. It does not need to be an all-or-nothing situation. If you feel that you dont want the Rad replaced, tell them. You've had the water pump tested multiple times and dont want that replaced, cool. Understand the reasoning and risk. It is your money and credit on the line, not theirs. Ask why the machine shop bill is 800. Are they doing a valve job? Guides? No shame in understanding your bill (especially one of that size).
Good shops will respect your decisions and work with you. They should understand that not everyone can justify or afford 8k on a repair.
I agree that 800 is a deal to have heads rebuilt. But I'm not convinced that's what's happening. For a simple head gasket, its really only necessary to pressure test, resurface and install steam seals (since they come with most head gasket sets). I would expect it to be in the 300 range for a pair. But as I said, without knowing what they're doing, its useless for me to assume.
-
Now mechanic advice can get super contentious real fast. This is inevitable, but I'd like to avoid using language that implies malfeasance. Every shop has trained techs who have lived experience and education. There are vastly different views out there depending on where that experience comes from. Everyone has their own "best practices". Mechanics get a bad rap and it's hard enough building trust with customers without other shops actively judging and badmouthing situations they are not a part of for doing things differently than they would. I know shops who would recommend some Blue Devil stop leak to seal up that small leak before it gets worse and save some money. Is that wrong? Not necessarily.
Is there an argument to be had for replacing the radiator?
-Yes, combustion gasses break down rubber and plastic (softening them) and the radiator has plastic tanks.
Would I personally replace this one due to the description you gave us?
-No. I could not justify that to the customer unless there were early signs of failure. (Again, stranger on the internet who has not inspected the radiator in question)
@Trigger T4R
It is perfectly acceptable to question their list. It does not need to be an all-or-nothing situation. If you feel that you dont want the Rad replaced, tell them. You've had the water pump tested multiple times and dont want that replaced, cool. Understand the reasoning and risk. It is your money and credit on the line, not theirs. Ask why the machine shop bill is 800. Are they doing a valve job? Guides? No shame in understanding your bill (especially one of that size).
Good shops will respect your decisions and work with you. They should understand that not everyone can justify or afford 8k on a repair.
