Too Much Information will destroy what we do.

[MOAK]

There is not much that gives my wife and I greater pleasure than to stumble upon an unknown and perfect campsite, to find incredible scenic vistas, or to traverse remote and beautiful trails, using paper maps, a compass and dead reckoning. Do we use apps when on the interstates or paved roads? Ah, yes. A very simple tool, Google Maps. It is nice to be able to find the nearest gas station, hotel or restaurant and have an idea when we'll arrive. However, out in the back country? Nope, we like surprises. We live for them. I was involved as a trail mapper with one of the earlier apps that gives turn by turn navigation, complete with waypoints, GPS coordinates, etc, etc, etc. Once I realized what I had gotten myself into, I bailed out after my first report. Here is a really good article by a well know world traveler. I like this guy, and hope to meet him someday. Sure, apps and navigation programs have their place, I get that, just not in my truck.

Are you an Overlander or an iOverlander? Or both? - Expedition Portal

Photography by Graeme Bell, Luisa Bell, Keelan Bell. Designed to enable access to specific and relevant information, travel apps have become an integral part of the modern overland experience. But, is this an entirely positive development? Are these apps essential? And how have these apps...

expeditionportal.com

 

[Boostpowered]

Same thing fishing you don't give out your spot if you want it to stay good. Your not going to stop people from finding it on their own though

 

[Longshot270]

Trail blazers for centuries have complained about civilization following in their footsteps and spoiling the wild with the comfortable. That's just how it works, and now it works at the speed of light. The prominence/plague of new technology and social media only sped up the process. Funny thing is, it is a double edged sword. They don't know what you don't tell them and they are so dependent on their gadgets leading them around that they'll walk right past the hidden treasures making those treasures more secure than ever.

 

[Boostpowered]

I actually have a perfect example for the fishing part I mentioned. Throughout October I was prefishing for a tournament on a small hardly fished lake. I had my spot where I was catching some nice big blue catfish and on November 7th the day of the tournament I roll into my spot at 6am in the fog I kept hearing bumps on my boats hull, I figured it was just branches or gar rolling, well by 7am the fog had burnt off and I realized what was bumping my boat. I was surrounded by bleach jugs, apparently the night before someone came in and set a whole bunch of juglines and totally ruined my chances to win the tournament or even place. My wife is the only reason I didn't pull every one of those jug lines cut em up and leave them on the boat ramp. We were talking over 100 jugs filling up a feeder creek with 4 hooks per line.

 

[MMc]

I don’t post on the internet the places I love. I will talk about them after I know you, sitting around a campfire or a cup of morning coffee. Although I my not be the first one there, it’s new to me and I love the feeling of my discovery. Hell, I am driving down a road or 2 track. Do I go to places I read about , yep. When we chat and you feed me nugget or a heading it jumps up in my places to go list. I don’t travel with a pack ether. Do I miss a spot if don’t know about it?

 

[Cypress]

I don’t post on the internet the places I love. I will talk about them after I know you, sitting around a campfire or a cup of morning coffee. Although I my not be the first one there, it’s new to me and I love the feeling of my discovery. Hell, I am driving down a road or 2 track. Do I go to places I read about , yep. When we chat and you feed me nugget or a heading it jumps up in my places to go list. I don’t travel with a pack ether. Do I miss a spot if don’t know about it?

This is what I do. Mouth shut, eyes and ears open. Too many places get ruined when they get broadcast to the general public. It's unfortunate, but true.

 

[rho]

Yep, it totally will.

A similar situation has been ongoing with Strava and mountain biking for a while now, with closures and increased enforcement on various "unsanctioned" trails due to data pulled straight from Strava. A lot of those trails were former 'fight club' trails and if you were told about them, you didnt share the details online. Strava and Heat maps changed all of that for the worse. The Bay Area has seen some major changes in how trail management due to this.

I don't think its quite as bad with the 4x4 and overland crowd yet, but there is very much the possibility of land-use policy changing due to increased use/awareness of routes. Combined with this past year of everyone wanting to escape to the backcountry and stuff getting trashed, I'm not optimistic about the future of 4x4 motorsports.

 

[MOAK]

[QUOTE="Longshot270, post: 511889, They don't know what you don't tell them and they are so dependent on their gadgets leading them around that they'll walk right past the hidden treasures making those treasures more secure than ever.
[/QUOTE]
Too bad there isn’t a quadruple “like” button.

 

[rgallant]

It is funny I still carry paper map books with me, even though I have trails on my GPS, I often on roads that do not show up. it is nice to grab the coordinates and see where the road "might" go.

 

[CMac]

I actually have a perfect example for the fishing part I mentioned. Throughout October I was prefishing for a tournament on a small hardly fished lake. I had my spot where I was catching some nice big blue catfish and on November 7th the day of the tournament I roll into my spot at 6am in the fog I kept hearing bumps on my boats hull, I figured it was just branches or gar rolling, well by 7am the fog had burnt off and I realized what was bumping my boat. I was surrounded by bleach jugs, apparently the night before someone came in and set a whole bunch of juglines and totally ruined my chances to win the tournament or even place. My wife is the only reason I didn't pull every one of those jug lines cut em up and leave them on the boat ramp. We were talking over 100 jugs filling up a feeder creek with 4 hooks per line.

Why wouldn’t you pull the jug lines and cut ‘em up? Seems like a good solution....

 

[MidOH]

Are the jug lines legal to do out there?

Fisherman are pretty much a scourge, everywhere I go. There is always a few of them ruining everything.
-They tie up boat ramps when the best shore fishing is only a 100yd walk away. Boat ramps are for boating.
-litter everywhere
-get drunkinly territorial about all kinds of weird stuff. Fisherman around, means my 12 gauge is around when camping.

 

[genocache]

Probably going to hurt some feelings here, not my intent though.

Yes, the more we share online our favorite or not so favorite places the more use they are likely to get. I started mountain biking in the early 80's, gradually the trails became more used and erosion took place at a higher rate making the underlying rocks exposed and the formally smooth hiking trails bumpy. Riders started to go around the rocks widening the trails and brining about the need for full suspension bikes. As the years went by the trails got worse and now bigger wheels were needed to make a smoother ride and 29'rs were brought out. This whole time magazines(remember them?) touted this trail and that route to the masses. And they bought bikes and came in the hundreds. Widening trails and making illegal ones. Now there are electric bikes and bikepacking to get them ot n abuot.

In the 4x4 world much the same happened, tires went from stock and 29's to, no decent fourwheeler has less than a 2" lift and 35's. Heck you need them to get down the heavily used and eroded trails that the masses congregate to every weekend. Now we have "overlanding" which is just a fancy name for car camping that you used to be able to do in a Ford Model A.

But the real issue in my mind is not that we need bigger engines and larger tires to enjoy the outdoors.

It is that there are too many of us. Shear numbers of people planet wide are driving erosion on the trails and contributing to global warming, but you don't hear it from the pundits. No, we all need electric cars.
If more folks went to nature and didn't leave poop and toilet paper in the area around the beautiful campsites, if they didn't ride their mountainbike/razor/4x4 up over that berm by the side of the trail(yes, I'm talking about you and that slide/tailwhip!) If they drove/rode thru that muddy puddle instead of around(if the trail is muddy you shouldn't be riding it in the first place) it, over that rock (isn't that why you bought full suspension?) instead of around it.

Stop tearing up the landscape! If you "Feel the need for speed" there are OHV places that will give you a run for your money! Just because you see someone at the Hammers climbing a rock wall does not mean you should try it in a National Park. Go to Moab for that where the trails are seriously over run, but at least the red rock can handle it. Put those 40's on your 700hp rig, or better yet 54's and go for it. Just not at KOFA.

We all see it, just look at the thread on what is the largest group you have been out with? 100+! Really! What’s the largest group you’ve been with?

Yes, I'm guilty, read my blog I tell you where I go. I just hope I'm talking to those who like to get away and will leave it as they find it.

I rest my case. Please tread lightly.

 

[rgallant]

@genocache interesting the line below, our Land Rover group is getting up to 16-20 trucks a trip and we think that is too many. It is hard to get the group going after breaks and it makes break spots and camp sites with enough space difficult to find. Enough so that we are considering breaking into 2 groups, as much as we all love the social aspect and each group doing the loop in opposite direction if possible and only meeting up at the mid point campsite.

We all see it, just look at the thread on what is the largest group you have been out with? 100+! Really! What’s the largest group you’ve been with?

 

[Downs]

Eh I enjoy my paper maps as well but something like GAIA can pull up some old topo maps that show trails/roads that haven't existed for decades. And I have real time situational awareness of where I am.

As for sharing. I pretty much don't and if I do it's via private message. All of my GAIA data is set to private.

 

[genocache]

@genocache interesting the line below, our Land Rover group is getting up to 16-20 trucks a trip and we think that is too many. It is hard to get the group going after breaks and it makes break spots and camp sites with enough space difficult to find. Enough so that we are considering breaking into 2 groups, as much as we all love the social aspect and each group doing the loop in opposite direction if possible and only meeting up at the mid point campsite.

Richard, I know, the largest group of Rovers I've been with was 22. It can take foooreeveer for some folks to get ready to go. Yes. I want to share and socialize and sometimes be slow and lazy myself, but I will avoid the big name destinations due to crowds. Sometimes 2 can be too many. ;^)

I'd love to make it up to BC and the Rocky Mountain Trench some late fall.

 

[Boostpowered]

Why wouldn’t you pull the jug lines and cut ‘em up? Seems like a good solution....

Its against the law to harass or tamper with fisherman's stuff

 

[CMac]

Its against the law to harass or tamper with fisherman's stuff

Ah! Great to know...now I need to consult my own state’s regulations.

Appreciate the food for thought...thank you!!

 

[USStrongman]

This for me, is kinda missing the point. Once I find something, I enjoy sharing it with people. People that I know will appreciate it, not some kind of blog, website, podcast, YouTube channel (all better known as Braggartry). Overlanding for me isn't overlanding. Its a means to an end that repeats itself. Discovery is what I call my lifestyle when I leave the comforts of my home. Discovery to find new to me places. Not by a massive preplanned itinerary, but by just going. Go Discover, Share, Rinse, Repeat.

 

[MOAK]

This for me, is kinda missing the point. Once I find something, I enjoy sharing it with people. People that I know will appreciate it, not some kind of blog, website, podcast, YouTube channel (all better known as Braggartry). Overlanding for me isn't overlanding. Its a means to an end that repeats itself. Discovery is what I call my lifestyle when I leave the comforts of my home. Discovery to find new to me places. Not by a massive preplanned itinerary, but by just going. Go Discover, Share, Rinse, Repeat.

You got it- share with people that we know will appreciate it. That means, to me anyway, personal contact, friendships, family, not something posted up somewhere for all to see. I’m guilty of posting up a drive or two on YouTube in my previous life. I unsubscribed to a lot of the overland/4x4 regulars years ago. Now I just stick to model trains, gear reviews, builds, and ASPW.

 

[GunninIt]

It is that there are too many of us. Shear numbers of people planet wide are driving erosion on the trails and contributing to global warming, but you don't hear it from the pundits. No, we all need electric cars.

If more folks went to nature and didn't leave poop and toilet paper in the area around the beautiful campsites, if they didn't ride their mountainbike/razor/4x4 up over that berm by the side of the trail(yes, I'm talking about you and that slide/tailwhip!) If they drove/rode thru that muddy puddle instead of around(if the trail is muddy you shouldn't be riding it in the first place) it, over that rock (isn't that why you bought full suspension?) instead of around it.

Stop tearing up the landscape! If you "Feel the need for speed" there are OHV places that will give you a run for your money! Just because you see someone at the Hammers climbing a rock wall does not mean you should try it in a National Park. Go to Moab for that where the trails are seriously over run, but at least the red rock can handle it. Put those 40's on your 700hp rig, or better yet 54's and go for it. Just not at KOFA.

Quoted the parts I wanted to discuss/agree/disagree with!

I think you're right that there are too many of us, but I'm not talking about people on the planet - just people interested in this "sport" of "ours." Even in the 80's when I was able to ride in the front seat of my dad's old CJ5 as a little kid, there were a lot of people out there. Now, there's more people into it. Build your rig. Go out. Adventure. And, unfortunately, tear $hit up. That's the bad part.

You're right on the money that people need to stop tearing things up. And even more right on the money that people should go to OHV areas. Unscientifically, I think 90% of guys building their trucks these days would be just as happy using the OHV areas. I guess it's about education. So, to that end, let's help educate them.

The sad state of affairs is that people are leaving trash everywhere. We always bring an extra trash bag to pick up things we find out on the trail if possible. Wish more people did that, or better yet, just picked up their stuff in the first place.

One thing I've seen in addition to your comment about there being too many people - is the size of groups that go out. I think that also contributes to the Tom Foolery. Some of these groups are so large that they're bound to break/destroy/ruin things even if they're mostly being careful. This is one reason I won't go to some "favorites" any longer. The groups are just way too big.

Also, the irony of my screen name isn't lost on me when I talk about tearing it up. It's from the days when I had big engined/power German sports cars. They, too, cause drama up in the mountains on the curvy/windy roads. So, it's not just the overlanding/offroading communities.