GVWR?

[Lindenwood]

Has anyone ever thought about their Gross Vehicle Weight Rating?

My previous 2002 4Runner, with armor, dual batteries, 33s, fridge, compressor, and full drawers weighed about 4900 lbs with a full tank of gas (verified via scommercial scales). Gross Vehicle Weight Rating was 5250 lbs, technically leaving me a max of 350 lbs for all passengers and additional cargo, or about 150lbs or so after accounting for me and my daily backpack. Hah! Evacuating for the hurricane, I easily had 400lbs of gear, water, and gasoline in it, and not too long before I sold it, I had it loaded with 700lbs of mulch bags :P .

It wasnt until we made the decision to pursue living full-time in an Airstream travel trailer that I got my F250, which led me to the towing and hauling circles where GVWR and GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating -- i.e. including a trailer) can actually be quite important.

Now I have a whole spreadsheet to help me calculate the effects of various mods and loads on my F250's front and GAW (Gross Axle Weight) and GVW. Funny enough, on most vehicles GVWR and GAWRs are far less than you'd think. That is, you expect to be able to load every seat with adults and the trunk or cargo space full of luggage and be fine, but you are probably exceeding factory limits. A stock 4x4 3rd Gen 4Runner is about 4000lbs--if you put five 200lb adults in there plus a week's worth if luggage for each of them and a cooler full of beer, that 5250lb creeps up fast. Start adding bigger tires, maybe a little armor or recovery gear, and it gets even worse.

Even in my F250 with its 3400lb total payload capacity, if I put 6 adults in its 6 legal seats I could easily exceed the front GAWR sticker (granted, this rating is pretty arbitrary for the Ford Super Duty trucks, as all the running gear is explicitely rated to much higher in the literature).

So, has anyone ever thought about this? I am absolutely not trying to warn anyone or anything. Yes, in relatively obvious or extreme cases there have been legitimate criminal or civil consequences (i.e. grossly exceeding limits and being sued in civil court after a bad accident, or rare cases of being fined for exceeding GCWR during random scale checks). That said, while I now intend to be deliberate in not exceeding major weight limits, I do think some of the fears are a bit overblown. And, to be honest, with the right equipment I probably still wouldnt give it a 2nd thought if I had another 4Runner.


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[Dakota Houligans]

It all comes into play for safety and reliability. Go beyond the gvw and you can severely affect your braking and handling. Also Have you ever checked the weight rating of your tires and wheels? They are not equal. I've seen a lot of people with half ton trucks pulling trailers and hauling loads with passenger rated tires. It doesn't take long to overload even a "C" rated LT tire.

 

[Lindenwood]

It all comes into play for safety and reliability. Go beyond the gvw and you can severely affect your braking and handling. Also Have you ever checked the weight rating of your tires and wheels? They are not equal. I've seen a lot of people with half ton trucks pulling trailers and hauling loads with passenger rated tires. It doesn't take long to overload even a "C" rated LT tire.

Oh, for sure! With towing, there is no messing around. However, I am talking more about the 4Runners, Land Cruisers, midsized pickups, and Jeeps running around with an extra 1000lb of armor and gear. I imagine lots of those guys are up against-or have exceeded--GVWR and have never thought of what that really means. Granted, most of them have probably considered brake performance and selected their lifts with the weight in mind. But, you can't change the door sticker!

I of course understood what I was losing with the extra weight, and understand why those ratings exist. Still, I do think most of us are usually well within realistic safety margins as far as tires and stability go. The E, D, and even C-rated AT and MT tires most of us run are more than capable of supporting our rigs at the right pressures, and I could still lock up the tires on dry pavement. And, as we've all seen, few "what lift?" threads skip topics like rear sag, brake dive, and body roll.

I did think it was still worth a discussion :) .

 

[Dilldog]

Most of the time its not the capacity of the running gear that limits you, or even the brakes, but the suspension. A perfect example of this is my 93 Dodge W250. Since it has the Cummins in it the only difference between it and a W350 is the spring packs. Using air bags and a goose neck hitch I run it like a 1 ton quite frequently.
Honestly when Im loading a trailer or just a rig I worry more about weight balance than capacity for the most part. Careful planning of where you put your weight is often more important than how much you have (within reason of course). I have run loads that were under ratings and were dangerous due to poor balance, and I have had loads in excess of printed ratings that are solid, again because of balance.
The best thing anyone hauling anything more than groceries and the dog can do is understand a few basic things about suspension and drive train, and how it relates to their own vehicle. It will help you know what is and isnt a big deal and where you can run heavier or where you need to run lighter.

To Add: also like said above, tires tires tires. Closely followed by wheels wheels wheels. Tires and wheels are too often neglected and are probably the biggest limiting factor in load carrying and safety. Also if you are pushing the limits of your pickup, especially towing, just because it says E rated doesnt mean youre good to go. My first set of tires I ran when towing with the Dodge I made this mistake. I get a set of 6 ply E rated tires, and it was not fun. After upgrading to a set of 8 ply Es its solid. So even within each load rating, theres ply ratings that will help or hinder you depending on what you are after. And wheels have load ratings too, make sure you know them. Finally running bigger tires has a greater impact than just the weight, you also have to take into consideration rolling mass and inertia. I remember reading that running a set of 35s is the same as hauling 1200lbs when it comes to braking and accelerating. I dont know how true that is, but it makes sense to me. This is one of the reasons why anything I use to tow or haul a lot with is left stock.

 

[Lindenwood]

. Using air bags and a goose neck hitch I run it like a 1 ton quite frequently.

I think that is how lots of us feel, insofar as "as long as we upgrade the necessary parts, we're fine." Unfortunately, nothing we can do will change the number on the sticker. Especially when towing, that is the number that will matter if we are ever one of the unlucky few questioned about it.

 

[Lindenwood]

remember reading that running a set of 35s is the same as hauling 1200lbs when it comes to braking and accelerating. I dont know how true that is, but it makes sense to me.

It depends on the relative weight of yhe vehicle and the relative size of the originsl tires. But yes, on my 6500lb truck if I go from its stock 31.5s to 35s, I effectivrly add 11% to the forces required to accelerate or stop the vehicle, not including the weight of the tires themselves. Factoring an additional 25lb per corne of rotating mass, I am indeed looking about the equivalent if adding 900lb to the truck. Going to the 37s I am planning, that number is about 1400lb.

Of course, in my case, I'll be installing new diff gears to actually make the ratio much shorter than stock. And on the braking side, the entire braking system is already the same as trucks rated 10,000lbs more than my expected combined weight :) . Regardless, I still made sure to select a truck that had appropriate sticker ratings. I still believe people are probably a little more scared than is really necessary, but there are several anecdotes floating around of people operating over GCWR and exposing themselves to greater civil liability in a bad accident. Nobody operates 100% within the manufacturers' intents and recommendations, but exceeding GCWR seems to be the big one that has the highest likelyhood of biting the operator later.

 

[Jeff B]

My two cents. I have seen some blatant disregard for the gvwr numbers on vehicles. It does not matter how much the vehicle it upgraded, it does not change that number. If someone gets in an accident and that vehicle is 500, 1000, 2000 over the gvwr; that someone could be found completely liable in the accident. On top of that the insurance company could refuse to pay anything because the vehicle was so overloaded. Just go by the gvwr and be fine. If you need to carry more load then buy a bigger, more capable vehicle and don't put people at risk.

 

[8yearsglobal]

When we went full time, my wife insisted that we had a decent size box to live out of, hence the ambulance. I wanted a rooftop tent setup, but it was quickly denied. I then decided on a minimod (small box ambo), but after adding up water, tools, spares, kids books, etc, we had to go with the GVWR of the E450. I used to think the unimogs were overkill. But if you plan on having range with 110 gallons of water, 100 gallons of diesel, 1000w of solar, then add a family of 5 with the other misc gear, it starts to make sense for full timers. My goal is to remove crap over the next 3 years without the wife and kid noticing so I can taper down to a Landcruiser 78 build up once we cross from South America to Australia and head to Asia. After all, we tend to rent houses for a month here and there to take breaks from the road and catch up on homework. We'll see what happens.

 

[CCFinOKC]

Oh, for sure! With towing, there is no messing around. However, I am talking more about the 4Runners, Land Cruisers, midsized pickups, and Jeeps running around with an extra 1000lb of armor and gear. I imagine lots of those guys are up against-or have exceeded--GVWR and have never thought of what that really means. Granted, most of them have probably considered brake performance and selected their lifts with the weight in mind. But, you can't change the door sticker!

I of course understood what I was losing with the extra weight, and understand why those ratings exist. Still, I do think most of us are usually well within realistic safety margins as far as tires and stability go. The E, D, and even C-rated AT and MT tires most of us run are more than capable of supporting our rigs at the right pressures, and I could still lock up the tires on dry pavement. And, as we've all seen, few "what lift?" threads skip topics like rear sag, brake dive, and body roll.

I did think it was still worth a discussion :) .

I drive a brick with a brick on top.. never thought about it as I had upgraded to big brake kits, and did all the "right" things with my lift (in quotes as it is highly subjective). I am probably far exceeding the GVW. And of course all I want to do is bolt more on to it...

 

[Lindenwood]

It does not matter how much the vehicle it upgraded, it does not change that number. If someone gets in an accident and that vehicle is 500, 1000, 2000 over the gvwr; that someone could be found completely liable in the accident. On top of that the insurance company could refuse to pay anything because the vehicle was so overloaded.

You are absolutely right that the only important legal limit is what is on the sticker!

But, to be clear, an insurance company will not deny payout if you are jn an accident while driving over GVWR or GCWR. If such a thing were possible, then they'd never pay anything for any wreck caused by speeding, running red lights, or especially driving drink--those are all much more common risks to your every day driver. What they can--and likely would--do is jack up your rates, or even drop you entirely, after the fact.

HOWEVER, if the accident results in significant injuries, and the injured parties see a way to make you liable, you could find yourself in civil court. There, many factors ranging from assessed speeds to weight limits will likely be analyzed. Driving over GVWR or GCWR could then indeed be a factor thag could allow the judge to assign greater liability to the defendent.

To be real, though. The internet is filled with ghost stories about such cases. However, all the remotely-concrete anecdotes I have found where somebody gets raked over the coals in civil court usually involved multiple factors like speeding, driving an inappropriately-modified vehicle (like a 12" lift on a tow rig), and / or driving well over GCWR.

So, ultimately, it certainly is an extant risk, but probably not any more than many other things we do. For example, lots of us have taller rigs with steel bumpers--we could easily be sued in civil court if a lowered civic plows into the back of us, slides underneath, and is severely injured by the bumper in a way that wouldnt be possible with a stock bumper at stock height. How likely is this? Perhaps not terribly so, and it may not even hold up in court. But, certainly something to think about!

 

[rollingossuary]

Our FMTV is currently way under gvw and rolling around at 18000 lbs. I think we could put that 2002 forerunner in the bed and still have some weight left over. [emoji23][emoji23]

 

[Supernaut]

Good thread here. About weight, I’ve been very aware of the negative affect a high-mounted RTT has on handling, especially in corners.

 

[Plasmajab]

You are absolutely right that the only important legal limit is what is on the sticker!

But, to be clear, an insurance company will not deny payout if you are jn an accident while driving over GVWR or GCWR. If such a thing were possible, then they'd never pay anything for any wreck caused by speeding, running red lights, or especially driving drink--those are all much more common risks to your every day driver. What they can--and likely would--do is jack up your rates, or even drop you entirely, after the fact.

HOWEVER, if the accident results in significant injuries, and the injured parties see a way to make you liable, you could find yourself in civil court. There, many factors ranging from assessed speeds to weight limits will likely be analyzed. Driving over GVWR or GCWR could then indeed be a factor thag could allow the judge to assign greater liability to the defendent.

To be real, though. The internet is filled with ghost stories about such cases. However, all the remotely-concrete anecdotes I have found where somebody gets raked over the coals in civil court usually involved multiple factors like speeding, driving an inappropriately-modified vehicle (like a 12" lift on a tow rig), and / or driving well over GCWR.

So, ultimately, it certainly is an extant risk, but probably not any more than many other things we do. For example, lots of us have taller rigs with steel bumpers--we could easily be sued in civil court if a lowered civic plows into the back of us, slides underneath, and is severely injured by the bumper in a way that wouldnt be possible with a stock bumper at stock height. How likely is this? Perhaps not terribly so, and it may not even hold up in court. But, certainly something to think about!

To add a bit to this. In Ontario your claim can be denied for overloading, however the onus of proof is on the insurance company. Which takes time and money and not something they are interested in as its extremely hard to prove in court.

For the Ontario folks, some bits to chew on:

HTA S.43, PARA 339 Cause vehicle to be overloaded. $4.00 per 100kg, not less then $100. So a C-note for overloading.

HTA S.43, PARA 316 Insecure load is a $130.00 fine. So just make sure your dangly bits are well secured.

Realistically tho. For overloading they have to prove your vehicle is overweight. If you have a trailer on and its sticker indicates you were overweight its easy to figure out on the roadside. Payload of the vehicle plus occupants, and tongue weight of the trailer. This happens a lot with "half-ton" vehicles pulling 28'-36' campers down the 401, because people look at their towing capacity and assume all will be fine.

But for overland rigs, they would have to manually calculate the weight of every piece and part added to the vehicle. Unless they have mobile scales, and I've never seen them used on anything non-commercial.

 

[Dilldog]

... Just go by the gvwr and be fine. If you need to carry more load then buy a bigger, more capable vehicle and don't put people at risk.

I see where you are coming from, but this argument isnt 100%. Sometimes the lower rated vehicle is safer. An example for you, my old 84 K5 Blazer had higher ratings than my 98 S10 ZR2 did. Now when you compare the two, they are the same width, same weight, the S10 had 4 wheel discs with 4 piston calipers up front, HD sway bars, rear panhard bar, same HP, a more stout transmission, the same axles, and lower gear ratios, not to mention a longer wheel base, and similar spring rates. In every way the S10 was set to be a better tow rig than the K5. The only reason the S10 was rated lower was for licensing, and so people didnt buy an S10 rather than a 1500 Silverado. So a lot of the time that number is arbitrary and is set by the manufacturer. This is why I say some level of mechanical understanding is essential for safe load hauling.

 

[Jeff B]

I see where you are coming from, but this argument isnt 100%. Sometimes the lower rated vehicle is safer. An example for you, my old 84 K5 Blazer had higher ratings than my 98 S10 ZR2 did. Now when you compare the two, they are the same width, same weight, the S10 had 4 wheel discs with 4 piston calipers up front, HD sway bars, rear panhard bar, same HP, a more stout transmission, the same axles, and lower gear ratios, not to mention a longer wheel base, and similar spring rates. In every way the S10 was set to be a better tow rig than the K5. The only reason the S10 was rated lower was for licensing, and so people didnt buy an S10 rather than a 1500 Silverado. So a lot of the time that number is arbitrary and is set by the manufacturer. This is why I say some level of mechanical understanding is essential for safe load hauling.

I agree that mechanical understanding is necessary for safe load hauling. However I have seen some people with jeep wranglers over 6000 lbs. That is ridiculous and not in any way legal. Mine is a 2015 and the gvwr on it is 5400 lbs, and it had the highest payload available at 1000 lbs. That being said, having one that is 600+ lbs over should not be.

 

[Dilldog]

I agree that mechanical understanding is necessary for safe load hauling. However I have seen some people with jeep wranglers over 6000 lbs. That is ridiculous and not in any way legal. Mine is a 2015 and the gvwr on it is 5400 lbs, and it had the highest payload available at 1000 lbs. That being said, having one that is 600+ lbs over should not be.

I used to own a 99 TJ and I know what you mean. With gear, two people, and the hardtop on the handling was vastly different than empty. I was always careful with my TJ. I think mine had a payload of like 900lbs, I know it was sub 1K. But mine was a 35 rear diff with 3.08 gears.

 

[Dakota Houligans]

Now it would seem that most people on here are interested in using their vehicles for relatively safe and reliable recreation. What drives me nuts is the guy behind you coming down the mountain in his 1 ton diesel truck pulling a 10,000 pound camper with a brand new set of $15 brake pads! But anyway, as long as you don't go very far over the gvw your reliability and safety are ok. But your long term reliability will decrease and maintenance will increase with the increase in weight. Sure the rear wheel bearing on my wife's tahoe can probably support 8,000 pounds but not for the long term. The bearing surface is only about 1/2 inch long and a few thousandths wide. The one on my F250 is at least 3/4 inch and on top of that it has 2 bearing per side not one. So it can support the higher weight longer which makes it safer and more reliable. I'd bet most of the people on here will only ever hurt their wallet not other people by being near or slightly over their gvw. One more little thing some may not realize is that when you go over the gvw of your vehicle the manufacturer is not liable or responsible for any damage done to or caused by the vehicle.

 

[CSG]

The only time I've ever really been concerned was matching a truck to a camper or fiver. I often travel alone and pack light in my LX or van so weight issues have yet to be a concern. But with hauling or towing, it's critical, IMO, to pay attention to the numbers.

 

[Ben Cleveland]

So, I've been curious about this for a while. I've actually started a spreadsheet with weight estimates for most of the major addons on my rig. By my calculations, I'm under GVWR by 650 lbs while daily driving (not including passengers), and only under by 350 or so when loaded for a trip (again not including passengers). I'm basically at GVWR right now after you factor passengers, and being loaded for a trip.

The kicker is that I have almost no armor. This is just gear, roof rack, RTT, drawers, and tools. and my vehicle does NOT look like its loaded down to go into battle.
This means I'm guaranteed to go over GVWR with the addition of ANY type of gear/bolt on thing. Anything on the front bumper area would just further add to that. I'm not necessarily concerned about that idea, I'm running E-rated 10 ply tires, and my suspension is upgraded to hold the weight. But it definitely makes me think twice about the weight of armor as I'm beginning to consider those purchases/addons in the next year or so.

I'm planning on bringing a small shipping scale home from work one weekend to separately weight my gear boxes and totes exactly. And going to stop at a CAT scale sometime soon to check my curb weight estimate. I don't necessarily think that much preciseness is necessary, but I'm obviously heavy, and I think its good to be aware of the numbers.

 

[Plasmajab]

CAT Scales are a great thing. Depending on your rig, you may have GAWR's (Axle) to consider in your calculations.

That being said, there are ways to lighten a vehicle. But it will never change the sticker.

Aluminum skidplates and armor might be something to look into.
Polycarbonate cases instead of steel lock boxes. Lighter rims.
Different water storage systems. Maybe 1-2 Gallons might be optimal instead of 40.
Storage racks. Aluminum or hollow steel might be better then rebar and welding one up.
Aluminum spindles and exhaust.
Instead of a 50qt fridge, perhaps a coleman softside cooler?
Lighting that uses polycarb lenses and LED's instead of glass.

Lots of options!