Government plans increase in alcohol content in gasoline ?

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

Here's a bit more info. When they state that, alcohol lower's emissions, that data was based on later model carburetors and very early fuel injection. There is no benefit from running it in a newer model vehicle. This is something some of the guys at my shop have researched extensively. They have gone as far as done their own testing over the last few years. Not to prove or disprove but, to see if it's true. So far, the less alcohol percentage, the better the emissions and overall efficiency.
Alcohol does slow down the burn (increase octane) but the problems outweigh the benefits. If you need to add it in to control detonation, you probably want to rethink your build or your running variable boost and need to run it when your out racing.
It seems this is more of a political deal than anything.

You are absolutely right. I've been waiting to hear from someone like you. My grandson works for Halliburton ( I wont say where for his sake) He has been laid off twice in the past 15 years from the oil and gas glut we have in the USA. Both times it was when the price of gas was at it's highest and for no apparent reason. For a while and probably now, he said every storage tank and every shipping vessel that Halliburton had access too was full. It is not a supply and demand situation that drives other products. They have it, their going to keep it , and get the price they want and to hell with you and me. He is facing lay off again, and the price of gas is once again high priced. If he wasn't so valuable he would already be gone. When he goes, the whole show is shut down. They are selling our gas to other nations at a higher price than they can steal from us. It's a monopoly game with our money. I wont blame the oil co's. like some do, I blame the government (not the president, he is not the government) for allowing these things to happen, encouraging it for who knows what other reason than to line some powerful shadow government group of politicians , bankers and other country's political pockets.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

The problem with draining the tanks is it allows condensation to form inside thus giving the same result. A full tank of stabilized fuel will actually keep water out of the tank.

I agree in the case with automobiles, not my weed eater.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

Fun fact on this.
Alcohol was being voted in as the national fuel. US had a grain surplus and as was stated above, small towns could produce their own fuel if needed. Rockefeller didn't like this. His interests were oil based. He got a bunch of his senator buddies to make it illegal. Boom..... Prohibition. Rockefeller now pushes gasoline as the national fuel.
Best way to make money. Make your competition illegal.

Before this happened, a guy named Diesel make an engine to replace the steam engine. Its a multi fuel engine designed to run on whale oil, lamp oil, alcohol, kerosene and anything you can make combust. Rockefeller had stake in a bunch of oil wells. His fuel was dirty, smelly and smoked. No one wanted it. he refines it a little and markets it as Diesel Fuel. Using his connections with the rail industry, starts shipping it out to major cities as fast as he can. You replace your steam engine and you think you need his fuel too. Again, the engine was designed to run anything available. This was the small towns didn't need to clear cut trees or import charcoal for the steam engines.
Saw a special on this on Discovery a while back.

Have you noticed, they never reveal historical facts until it's to late to do anything about it. That's why they don't teach American history anymore as far as I know.
In fact I don't think they teach anything any more !

 

[smritte]

Have you noticed, they never reveal historical facts until it's to late to do anything about it. That's why they don't teach American history anymore as far as I know.
In fact I don't think they teach anything any more !

Oh Yeah. Im an instructor. My student base is 18 -25. You would be surprised on what is not taught anymore.

 

[Dave K]

NASCAR runs E15

INDY runs E85

The higher percentage of ethanol in your fuel the lower your mileage will be in the same vehicle. I used to run an E85 Suburban and kept extensive records. The price difference has to have a gap greater than $X (differs for every vehicle based on mpg) for its use to make sense. Most of the time the price gap was present while I owned that vehicle and I bought E85 fuel.

During the time I lived in South Dakota I ran some percentage of ethanol in everything I ever owned which included many older IH Scouts, Trucks, Travelalls, etc. never once did I have a problem with anything that traced back to ethanol. Typically I ran E10 occasionally E15

Ethanol will always have a percentage of water in it. This is due to the process of distillation, the separation of alcohol from water. While fuel ethanol is ran through a molecular sieve, and up to 200 proof ( higher than that shine still in the woods) it still has water. This is more of an issue when fuel sits in higher temps as opposed to low. You will also have issues if you leave fuel tank vents open when it is hot and humid.

I have worked in 43 separate ethanol plants over the years. As such, I know a lot of people that work with the stuff everyday. Plant Managers, Maintanence Managers, Lab Managers, etc. Nobody I have known over the years has given me any “look out for” advise.

My personal opinion is that there is a tremendous amount of misinformation and opinions touted as facts. Most of it is BS. Occasionally a sound nugget of advise pops out but most of those things are just simply good advise in general regardless of what fuel you are using. In my Land Cruiser (97) I’d run E10 all day no worries.

All that said, I’m just a fire sprinkler guy. What do I know!

 

[Anak]

Have you noticed, they never reveal historical facts until it's to late to do anything about it. That's why they don't teach American history anymore as far as I know.
In fact I don't think they teach anything any more !

You got that right.

Varmint #1 got his first year in a public school system this year, after 8 years of homeschooling. His US History class frustrated the daylights out of him as they skimmed over (and sometimes not even that much) major events/causes of events. We have him taking an online math class right now so that he can skip to calculus next year (as a sophomore) because he is bored out of his gourd in his math class and the teachers won't answer his questions because he is asking questions that are too far ahead of the rest of the class so it is regarded as a waste of the other students' time. This high school has a statistics course he can take his junior year, and then his senior year we will have him take something at a local community college. And this high school is supposed to be top notch.

I could go on for a long time about public education and all that is wrong with it. It is possible to do so much better, yet we (as a nation) are throwing away entire generations of potential. Whiskey tango foxtrot?

 

[Dave K]

I could go on for a long time about public indoctrination and all that is wrong with it.

Fixed that misspelling for you!

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

You got that right.

Varmint #1 got his first year in a public school system this year, after 8 years of homeschooling. His US History class frustrated the daylights out of him as they skimmed over (and sometimes not even that much) major events/causes of events. We have him taking an online math class right now so that he can skip to calculus next year (as a sophomore) because he is bored out of his gourd in his math class and the teachers won't answer his questions because he is asking questions that are too far ahead of the rest of the class so it is regarded as a waste of the other students' time. This high school has a statistics course he can take his junior year, and then his senior year we will have him take something at a local community college. And this high school is supposed to be top notch.

I could go on for a long time about public education and all that is wrong with it. It is possible to do so much better, yet we (as a nation) are throwing away entire generations of potential. Whiskey tango foxtrot?

They don't want smart people any more, they want puppets. I think its fantastic that your boy can do calculus in the 9th grade. When I was a kid calculus was a collage course. Of course there was no such thing as a calculator which is an approved method of doing math these days. Notice I did not say learning math.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

Fixed that misspelling for you!

There you go, right on ! Isn't indoctrination the same as propaganda brain washing. It works in communist countries.

 

[Dave K]

There you go, right on ! Isn't indoctrination the same as propaganda brain washing. It works in communist countries.

I have 3 kids. Elementary School, Junior High School and High School. All three are 4.0+ gpa students. It is MIND BOGGLING the things they come home with they I spend time unteaching. The curriculum seems to mean very little. Social ideas seem to be a topic that a large volume of time is spent on. As I recall, I had teachers that taught both sides of an issue and I as a student made my mind up based on all of the information at hand. Often times now, only one side of an issue is being taught so it seems.

I am located in the most liberal part of the most liberal state in the USA. I can assure you without a doubt that these people are only about diversity and acceptance when it fits their social narrative. Things that are outside of thier agreement get names like racist, sexist, etc., regardless of them fitting the situation. As a society, we have become so pussified about potentially offending someone that we no longer say anything about anything. We worry so much about being accused of being “insert label here” that we say nothing. Those people that have loud voices continue on with their indoctrination and the wheel keeps turning.

We are quickly becoming a nation that lacks critical thinking and the ability to form our own opinions based on facts and situations. We let others do our thinking and check in on twitter to get updated on what we think and what our opinions are today. We elevate idiots and idolize them. Strive to become them and lose our own identity in the process.

Which brings me back to ethanol. Everything I said is true and you should believe it simply based on my say so! (Working on being a social influencer damnit!)

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

I have 3 kids. Elementary School, Junior High School and High School. All three are 4.0+ gpa students. It is MIND BOGGLING the things they come home with they I spend time unteaching. The curriculum seems to mean very little. Social ideas seem to be a topic that a large volume of time is spent on. As I recall, I had teachers that taught both sides of an issue and I as a student made my mind up based on all of the information at hand. Often times now, only one side of an issue is being taught so it seems.

I am located in the most liberal part of the most liberal state in the USA. I can assure you without a doubt that these people are only about diversity and acceptance when it fits their social narrative. Things that are outside of thier agreement get names like racist, sexist, etc., regardless of them fitting the situation. As a society, we have become so pussified about potentially offending someone that we no longer say anything about anything. We worry so much about being accused of being “insert label here” that we say nothing. Those people that have loud voices continue on with their indoctrination and the wheel keeps turning.

We are quickly becoming a nation that lacks critical thinking and the ability to form our own opinions based on facts and situations. We let others do our thinking and check in on twitter to get updated on what we think and what our opinions are today. We elevate idiots and idolize them. Strive to become them and lose our own identity in the process.

Which brings me back to ethanol. Everything I said is true and you should believe it simply based on my say so! (Working on being a social influencer damnit!)

Hoorah, I can see no one is going to brain wash you. I wish more people in your state had your intellectual understanding of reality. I give you 5 stars for being able to express yourself so brilliantly and correctly. I only wish I could speak with your fluency ! It seems I've spent half my life trying to convince people around me that black is truly black and never white ! You just cant fix stupid to quoin a phrase , I am being nice.

 

[Dilldog]

Fun fact on this.
Alcohol was being voted in as the national fuel. US had a grain surplus and as was stated above, small towns could produce their own fuel if needed. Rockefeller didn't like this. His interests were oil based. He got a bunch of his senator buddies to make it illegal. Boom..... Prohibition. Rockefeller now pushes gasoline as the national fuel.
Best way to make money. Make your competition illegal.

Before this happened, a guy named Diesel make an engine to replace the steam engine. Its a multi fuel engine designed to run on whale oil, lamp oil, alcohol, kerosene and anything you can make combust. Rockefeller had stake in a bunch of oil wells. His fuel was dirty, smelly and smoked. No one wanted it. he refines it a little and markets it as Diesel Fuel. Using his connections with the rail industry, starts shipping it out to major cities as fast as he can. You replace your steam engine and you think you need his fuel too. Again, the engine was designed to run anything available. This was the small towns didn't need to clear cut trees or import charcoal for the steam engines.
Saw a special on this on Discovery a while back.

Rudolph Diesel actually made his first engines run off of coal dust. His goal was to make an engine that would take the place of live stock in mines in Germany where he grew up and be powered off of a by product. He was unable to get an engine to last long enough on a powdered fuel source no matter what he thought of, but the feeding mechanisms he came up with are simply amazing. He eventually endorsed peanut oil as his preferred fuel for the Diesel engine. Its funny that "alternative" fuel sources were actually the original fuel sources. Big business interests have always steered politics and the economy, and not just in the US, its everywhere...

 

[Anak]

They don't want smart people any more, they want puppets. I think its fantastic that your boy can do calculus in the 9th grade. When I was a kid calculus was a collage course. Of course there was no such thing as a calculator which is an approved method of doing math these days. Notice I did not say learning math.

It greatly varies what any given individual is capable of, but the schools do not want to even consider such potential. It would require effort on their part and would result in a product which they do not want. Among other things, my bored Varmint spent his class time reading Leviathan by Hobbes, and even brought home for me Hobbes' justification of my insisting that my children are Varmints, not people. People are rational (Yes, I know. Very optimistic on Hobbes' part), children are not. But you keep feeding them hoping that they will someday become rational. (False hope is still hope.)

One of the more remarkable things I have found has been my children's reaction to Shakespeare. Once upon a time I was a high school English teacher (one of the many reasons we homeschool). Every time I taught Shakespeare I would have students whining about the difficulty of the language. You would think I was making them read Chaucer in the original language. In homeschooling we started out in the early primary grades with children's versions of Shakespeare and then in 4th grade started using the real versions. Well, until Varmint #2 determined he was being robbed and insisted that he wanted the real thing just like his older brother was getting. Not only were my children not intimidated by Shakespeare, they liked it. I think a big part of this is that they don't have a group of peers telling them how horrible it is and how they shouldn't like it. They drew their own conclusions.

I love it when people want to be critical of homeschooling and ask "What about the socialization?" It is so easy to reply "Yes. It is all about the socialization. That is the biggest reason we homeschool."

(Way off topic here. Sorry.)

 

[smritte]

Rudolph Diesel actually made his first engines run off of coal dust. His goal was to make an engine that would take the place of live stock in mines in Germany where he grew up and be powered off of a by product. He was unable to get an engine to last long enough on a powdered fuel source no matter what he thought of, but the feeding mechanisms he came up with are simply amazing

Now that's cool. The show didn't cover the early version of the engine, only Rockefellers part once it was being manufactured here. The show was about how Rockefeller "influenced" America and not in a good way.
Due to Prohibition, people kept the same mind set about alcohol as a fuel until 30 (ish) years ago. It didn't matter what research said, the government was against it. When they started focusing more on emissions, an independent group brought their research forward about all the benefits. Unfortunately at the same time gasoline engines kept evolving without alcohol. When they decided to use the alcohol data, it was already out dated. Unfortunately, that same data is referred to today.

I would very much like to see if they changed the build on the Brazilian engines or if their just running low compression gasoline tuned engines on alcohol. If they bumped the compression, the cam profiles wont be too bad, just not as efficient as they could be.

 

[Dilldog]

Now that's cool. The show didn't cover the early version of the engine, only Rockefellers part once it was being manufactured here. The show was about how Rockefeller "influenced" America and not in a good way.
Due to Prohibition, people kept the same mind set about alcohol as a fuel until 30 (ish) years ago. It didn't matter what research said, the government was against it. When they started focusing more on emissions, an independent group brought their research forward about all the benefits. Unfortunately at the same time gasoline engines kept evolving without alcohol. When they decided to use the alcohol data, it was already out dated. Unfortunately, that same data is referred to today.

I would very much like to see if they changed the build on the Brazilian engines or if their just running low compression gasoline tuned engines on alcohol. If they bumped the compression, the cam profiles wont be too bad, just not as efficient as they could be.

Yeah I forget how much fewer BTUs ethanol has compared to petroleum, but I know it has more BTUs than propane. So ironically we have the most common fuel at both ends of the spectrum as far as BTUs that are produced and marketed by petroleum companies, but the cleaner burning middle of the road fuel that could be produced anywhere by nearly anyone sits in the back and gets demonized. Sounds about right. Honestly though Im not for or against ethanol in our fuel, so long as you keep up on maintenance its a non issue. It has its up sides and its down sides.

 

[vdeal]

Yeah I forget how much fewer BTUs ethanol has compared to petroleum, but I know it has more BTUs than propane.

This is incorrect. Propane has 91500 BTUs/gal whereas pure ethanol has only 76100.