Cummins R2.8 in California

[yj4roks]

So I know there were a couple of others talking about the Cummins R2.8 in the past but my topic is specific to California (yeah...I know ) I am stuck living here until aging parents pass which isn't anytime soon! I have called Cummins Repower with no fuzzy feeling outcome and I have had a lengthy conversation with the referee and we CANNOT use that engine in this state of California except in pre-smog vehicles.When I called Cummins, they really didn't sound like they cared if they got the executive order or not. I was told they submitted the paperwork when the engine was released and they say California hasn't even acknowledged their request. To me, I would think a call after 30 days would have been in order to see where their application stood. I have friends with pre-smog vehicles that run this engine and I want it. (I have a 1990 Jeep YJ)
My motive behind this post is this...are there a bunch of folks here in California that also want this engine? If so, we need to put pressure on Cummins to finish what they started. Please start calling Cummins Repower Tech and put pressure on them, fill out the form on their contact page...whatever you can. I know some will respond saying to register out of state...it's not that cut and dry or easy to do. Hopefully folks will respond with positive ideas and/or Cummins might get the clue. I am pretty sure that this modern diesel engine runs a hell of a lot cleaner than my nearly 30 year old throttle-bodied gasser!

 

[tjZ06]

So I know there were a couple of others talking about the Cummins R2.8 in the past but my topic is specific to California (yeah...I know ) I am stuck living here until aging parents pass which isn't anytime soon! I have called Cummins Repower with no fuzzy feeling outcome and I have had a lengthy conversation with the referee and we CANNOT use that engine in this state of California except in pre-smog vehicles.When I called Cummins, they really didn't sound like they cared if they got the executive order or not. I was told they submitted the paperwork when the engine was released and they say California hasn't even acknowledged their request. To me, I would think a call after 30 days would have been in order to see where their application stood. I have friends with pre-smog vehicles that run this engine and I want it. (I have a 1990 Jeep YJ)
My motive behind this post is this...are there a bunch of folks here in California that also want this engine? If so, we need to put pressure on Cummins to finish what they started. Please start calling Cummins Repower Tech and put pressure on them, fill out the form on their contact page...whatever you can. I know some will respond saying to register out of state...it's not that cut and dry or easy to do. Hopefully folks will respond with positive ideas and/or Cummins might get the clue. I am pretty sure that this modern diesel engine runs a hell of a lot cleaner than my nearly 30 year old throttle-bodied gasser!

I agree, it's a total bummer that there's no CARB EO# for the R2.8. The funny thing, is the lack of a CARB EO# on the R2.8 will lead somebody like yourself to consider big gassers instead. You can get a LOT of motor for similar $ of a R2.8, motors with CARB EO#s that allow them to be swapped legally in pre-OBD-II vehicles like your YJ. For example, anything in GM's E-Rod lineup can be put into your YJ legally. A nice E-Rod LT-4 with 650 HP/TQ would be pretty nice, of course, I'm (mostly) kidding since that LT4 setup is about 2x the cost of a R2.8. However, the "base" E-Rod LS3 is around $9k, so within spitting-distance of the ~$7,700 R2.8s seem to go for. Most agree the E-Rod LS3 is a bit under-rated at 430 HP, but that's still a lot of scoot for your YJ, and I bet will knock-down better MPG too. It seems like the E-Rod 5.3 is held up in approval, or something, but if/when it hits it'll be right around $7k and still deliver 326/350 HP/TQ.

-TJ

 

[yj4roks]

Yeah I am still looking at other possible gas solutions but I am a big diesel fan (RAM 2500 owner for 19 years). I've owned my Jeep its entire time and all three of my kids have grown up in it and learned to drive it (manual trans too!) I am at the point of no return now as my 4-banger ECM is no longer available nor is the one I have serviceable...this has been going on for 2 years so I have had that amount of time to look and research solutions...it's dead.
So back to this...Part of my logic with the R2.8 is low end torque, probably will never overheat, fairly easy to swap, etc. My days of "needing" huge power on the trail are done and I just want something that will be reliable and get decent mileage. I enjoy remote location rockcrawling (with a trailer) so that would be the primary function. I have found a swap package which includes the engine back including a manual transmission and motor mounts for about $11k .

 

[tjZ06]

Yeah I am still looking at other possible gas solutions but I am a big diesel fan (RAM 2500 owner for 19 years). I've owned my Jeep its entire time and all three of my kids have grown up in it and learned to drive it (manual trans too!) I am at the point of no return now as my 4-banger ECM is no longer available nor is the one I have serviceable...this has been going on for 2 years so I have had that amount of time to look and research solutions...it's dead.
So back to this...Part of my logic with the R2.8 is low end torque, probably will never overheat, fairly easy to swap, etc. My days of "needing" huge power on the trail are done and I just want something that will be reliable and get decent mileage. I enjoy remote location rockcrawling (with a trailer) so that would be the primary function. I have found a swap package which includes the engine back including a manual transmission and motor mounts for about $11k .

Yup, I hear you. I've had my '11 diesel Chevy 2500 for just under 9 years now, and love it. A diesel like the R2.8 would be an AWESOME choice for your rig. I'm sure you've seen Fred's R2.8 TJ "tubesock", right?

That said, you'd be surprised of the low-end grunt of a 6.2L LS3... and the simplicity of the swap, reliability, etc. It might want a little more cooling than the R2.8, but then again maybe not... LSs generally run pretty cool.

-TJ

 

[smritte]

I had been following a few builds with the 2.8. I really wanted one based on their Ca legal and the power curve. Now several years later I'm seeing a bunch of people not happy and a bunch of issues. Now granted some people reprogrammed them and got a ton more power but, not all. I'm basing this on the few builds I was following and a search one of my buddies did a few months ago.

I have personally done over a dozen CA legal engine swaps with GM motors and wanted to do a diesel. By the time I would be done with the 2.8 swap into my cruiser, I was going to be over 15k.

Now their saying they never got the cert? wow. I can get some nice numbers out of a mild LS motor and 6 speed auto for that much money.

 

[yj4roks]

Thanks for the feedback. I am overly frustrated with how this state works. I have read mixed reviews as well on the 2.8...as badly as I want diesel, I am not sure it's worth the wait to possibly never have it happen here. I think I will be looking elsewhere. I currently have an SM420 trans and was going to keep that in place if going with a gasser...It's currently is bolted up to the stock Jeep 4-banger using an S-10 bellhousing so hoping not much in mods needed to bolt up a chevy mill which was my original intent until this stupid, desirable R2.8 showed up.

 

[Anak]

I understand your frustration. When the news of the R2.8 first came out I was interested and got on the email list for updates as it progressed. All the marketing information they put out suggested it would be 50 state legal, but every time I inquired about an E.O. for Kali I met a brick wall. I am not surprised they still do not have it legal for Kali.

Major bummer.

I gave a lot of thought to a Mercedes Diesel conversion. Keep it in the same year model range and it should be theoretically possible, and once you make that conversion with the referee you are home free.

Also note that you don't have to actually leave the state to get away from the smog rules. It is just the coastal and heavily populated areas that have smog inspections. If you get into the mountains and rural communities you can pretend you live in a free state.

 

[yj4roks]

**UPDATE** So in the last two days I have contacted Cummins by email and by phone...all three outcomes were that they didn't have any information on the status of their application. I even asked them since they haven't been acknowledged about the application that maybe CARB doesn't even have it? I got nothing back for that question. SO...I contacted the CARB folks and got a lengthy email response back from them detailing that Cummins has never submitted an application on the R2.8!! So either Cummins did not submit because they don't want to deal with California, or the application has been lost. I have forwarded the email to Cummins so will see how they respond. If they do not wish to do business in this state...I get it, the shit show is real here. But at least tell us that and move on. I am hopeful that I have brought to light for them that CARB does not have their application.

 

[tjZ06]

**UPDATE** So in the last two days I have contacted Cummins by email and by phone...all three outcomes were that they didn't have any information on the status of their application. I even asked them since they haven't been acknowledged about the application that maybe CARB doesn't even have it? I got nothing back for that question. SO...I contacted the CARB folks and got a lengthy email response back from them detailing that Cummins has never submitted an application on the R2.8!! So either Cummins did not submit because they don't want to deal with California, or the application has been lost. I have forwarded the email to Cummins so will see how they respond. If they do not wish to do business in this state...I get it, the shit show is real here. But at least tell us that and move on. I am hopeful that I have brought to light for them that CARB does not have their application.

Wow, that's kind of wild. Thanks for your efforts to get to the bottom of it though.

-TJ

 

[Anak]

My bet is that Cummins doesn't want to try to play ball with the bureaucratic mess that is Kali, but they don't want to publicly admit that either.

Thanks for doing the legwork to show that there is currently nothing to hope for.

 

[yj4roks]

They should just be up front with the public...I would totally get that...if they are stringing us along...that'll piss me off big time.
Not mentioned in my original post in attempts to keep the post shorter. The person at CARB that sent me the message said that Cummins did have multiple applications submitted for engines 5.0L and bigger...so they are dealing with our crappy state for some engines...maybe they just don't think there's enough market here for the 2.8...who knows...I am not done with this! LOL

 

[Charles M]

Isn't the Federal government trying to kill CARB?

 

[Anak]

The fact that they are testing other engines may not be entirely relevant to this engine and its intended use, unless the other engines are also intended for swaps.

I have had a bit of peripheral exposure to dealing with the CARB E.O. process when I used to work for Hooker Headers. We had a number of products which had CARB E.O. numbers, and a number of plans to add more products. That process involved identifying specific models and year ranges for which our products where intended, and then testing within those selections. And the testing involved a change of only one engine component. It is entirely possible that CARB has no process in place for an engine swap, and especially not for an engine swap that also includes a change from gas to diesel and is intended to cover a broad swath of vehicles. I can't imagine CARB would be particularly eager to make such a process available, especially given that the target vehicles could end up being smog exempt as a result of the swap ('97 down diesels currently being exempt from testing).

Going back the larger engines they are testing, if these are for new vehicles (as opposed to retrofits) then it is another ball game. If they are for retrofits I would wonder if they are for as broad a swath of vehicles and for a change in fuel from gas to diesel. Those are the two issues that I see as the biggest obstacles for a manufacturer trying to play ball with CARB. There would have to be a substantial market to provide the profit required to compensate for those challenges. And perhaps that is what Cummins is doing, waiting to see how well this new engine does elsewhere before deciding if it is worth it to go the mat with CARB.

 

[Funmobile]

Slightly off topic, yet intertwined.......for motor swaps in the great state of CA, here are the basic rules for those interested:
1) Must be as large or larger
2) Must be as new or newer
3) Must be from like vehicle (passenger car to passenger car)
4) Must be legal for use in CA

If it meets those criteria, it's a trip to the Referee for the holy blessing.

IF..... it was a factory option in that year/model.....no Referee trip is required. Example, if you found a wrecked YJ with a 6 cyl in the same year as yours, you could swap that in. ;)

 

[Dave K]

Just register it in another state and be done with it!

 

[yj4roks]

Just register it in another state and be done with it!

Don't you have to show proof of residency in that other state?

 

[Dave K]

.......not all of those states.

 

[Dave K]

Check your messages.

 

[EXPO_D1]

register it in a state that does not care what you have in it. tada!

also as a diesel tech the Mercedes diesel is my choice

 

[yj4roks]

The fact that they are testing other engines may not be entirely relevant to this engine and its intended use, unless the other engines are also intended for swaps.

I have had a bit of peripheral exposure to dealing with the CARB E.O. process when I used to work for Hooker Headers. We had a number of products which had CARB E.O. numbers, and a number of plans to add more products. That process involved identifying specific models and year ranges for which our products where intended, and then testing within those selections. And the testing involved a change of only one engine component. It is entirely possible that CARB has no process in place for an engine swap, and especially not for an engine swap that also includes a change from gas to diesel and is intended to cover a broad swath of vehicles. I can't imagine CARB would be particularly eager to make such a process available, especially given that the target vehicles could end up being smog exempt as a result of the swap ('97 down diesels currently being exempt from testing).

Going back the larger engines they are testing, if these are for new vehicles (as opposed to retrofits) then it is another ball game. If they are for retrofits I would wonder if they are for as broad a swath of vehicles and for a change in fuel from gas to diesel. Those are the two issues that I see as the biggest obstacles for a manufacturer trying to play ball with CARB. There would have to be a substantial market to provide the profit required to compensate for those challenges. And perhaps that is what Cummins is doing, waiting to see how well this new engine does elsewhere before deciding if it is worth it to go the mat with CARB.

All great information and I appreciate it! All makes sense...understanding that this place is not an easy place to do business, which is why companies leave. I get it...if they are still testing the waters with sales in other regions, etc before dropping the time and expense to sell it here, fine. But they should be up front with that. The call and emails I have sent in the last couple of days are probably fielded by team members not completely in the know? Maybe you might know...how do they actually submit to get an E.O.? Do they mail it in or is it filed electronically? I do plan to call them back as I mentioned in an earlier post, the CARB folks show no record of anything even being submitted on the R2.8. Cummins tech told me they submitted and haven't heard a thing. I tend to think they did submit and the application has been lost in the mail or who knows...sitting on a desk at CARB...shit happens. I just find it odd that if Cummins did submit and haven't heard a peep as they put it, they would follow up to see what's up.