How to tick-off a trail leader

[armyRN]

I was going to title it "How to P*ss-off a trail leader" but I didn't know if the moderators would like that. And I truly appreciate all the moderators do.

Note: this thread is for trail leaders (trip leaders) to comment on with their experiences leading groups on runs. Trail leaders - post up!

If you (the reader) want to start a separate thread regarding what you consider are terrible trail leader experiences/traits, please start your own thread - do not post them here. Heck - start your own thread, send me a PM with the link, and I might just put the link in here for you (for balance).

Disclaimer: I may have embellished or tweaked some of these examples slightly to make a point or whatever (and not all have necessarily happened to me personally as a trail leader - I may have just been a participant), so if some of these hit close to home and you know me, don't take it personally. I may also come across as snarky in some of my posts.

So here we go (I will probably come back and add to these as I think of more, so if you come back to this site you might want to start back at the beginning).

Someone (the trail leader) decides to organize a week-long overlanding trip. They put in a good bit of effort to plan, research, organize, put out needed information, and post it as a Rally Point on the Overland Bound Forum. And until the departure date they respond to questions, give advice, and try and get folks ready to function as a group on the trip.

You're looking at the calendar on OB, and you see the above week-long trip that you'd like to do. So you sign up for the trip. Great!

Here are some ways to make the trail leader wish they had never met you, and question why they are doing this trail leading/organizing thing in the first place.

 

[armyRN]

#1. Whining. OMG this is so #1. Decades ago Rick Pewe was running events with JP magazine, and his first rule was always (in bold large font) "No Whining"! I always thought that was weird - why would anyone sign up for an event, and then whine during it? Then I started leading groups and found out quickly. Some folks just like to whine. What do they whine about? How can you whine most effectively?

a. "When are we going to stop/where are we going to camp for the night"? Here's the usual answer: I don't know - I'd like to stop around 5PM. Even if I pre-ran the trip, it is different going by myself vs. taking a group. The more folks in the group, the slower we'll be going. Unexpected things happen. And sometimes campgrounds I was planning on using are full, or not available. Or we're on the side of a mountain, and it will be a bit before we get to some sort of level ground. Even that morning if I tell you I don't know where we'll be camping that night, don't let that stop you from starting to whine around 2PM, and every time we see a potential campsite get on the radio and say "There's a campsite".

b. It is raining and you're cold. Sorry I couldn't schedule sunny weather for you. Quit whining. We're overlanding - it is part of the adventure.

c. Complain about the terrain, trail conditions, the fact we're going too fast/too slow, it is dusty, we made some wrong turns, etc. Just whine for the sake of whining. Make sure you're whining on the radio so everyone can hear you. Also whine about the trail leader behind their back.

 

[armyRN]

#2. Deciding you're in charge.

a. So we're driving along, and you see something on the map that's a little bit of a detour. You get on the radio and ask if we can do the side trip, and after thinking about it for a few minutes the trail leader says "No, let's keep going". Don't let that stop you - get back on the radio and say "Does anyone want to do this side trip". Everyone heard me say "No" just a minute ago, but go ahead, get on the radio and see if you can take over the group. Try to make the trail leader seem incompetent or uncaring. Try and divide the group. Let folks know you're not going to take "No" from the trail leader. If Dad says "No", ask Mom.

b. We're trying to make up some lost time, and you see a potential camp site. The trail leader wants to keep going because they believe there's a camp site further down the trail. Get real loud and say "We're not going any further - we're stopping here". Show the trail leader you're really in charge. Decide you're going to speak for the group! Decide you're the new spokesman.

c. Trail leader puts out the evening prior that we're having wheels rolling at 0800. Come morning, you come stumbling out of your tent at 0755 and tell everyone "We're not leaving till everyone's ready, and I'm not ready". Show the trail leader that he/she doesn't get to decide when we're rolling in the morning. Or get all whiney and bitchy because of the trail leader's unrealistic expectations. You're on vacation! Make everyone else wait for you, because it is all about you.

d. Or better yet, get up early and head into town for breakfast, and come 0800 you're nowhere to be found. Get bitchy and defensive with the trail leader when they remind you (when you finally get back) that we had planned on wheels rolling at 0800, and you were holding us up.

e. Same with lunch stops. Just because the trail leader says we're leaving in 45 minutes, don't believe him. Wait 40 minutes before getting your lunch out of your vehicle, and when he/(or she) says wheels rolling in five minutes, tell him/her you're not done eating, and we're not leaving till you're ready to leave. Be sure to say out loud "Who put him in charge"? Or better yet, get all passive/aggressive about it. Pretend you didn't hear the trail leader. Or decide you're going to go for a short hike right at that time so we can't find you. Make everyone wait for you, because really... it is all about YOU and what YOU want, not what the trail leader or the rest of the group wants.

 

[armyRN]

#3. Not having the required equipment, or the wrong equipment.

a. On my runs, a full-size matching spare tire and rim are mandatory. Buy hey - you just put 40" tires on your Jeep, and not only can't you afford a matching spare, your tailgate can't handle the weight. So try and convince me a plug kit will be just fine - you don't need a spare. Or tell me you're got tire irons and patches and bailing wire - nothing everyone else likes better than to watch you try and dismount, repair, and remount a tire on the side of the trail. Especially if it is on a slope and it is raining. Or look around to see who's got the same bolt pattern as you so you can borrow their spare tire if needed. Because really, I'm carrying around this heavy spare tire for YOU.



b. The trails are tight in the PNW, so the trail leader on the rally point specifies trailers need to be small (like WWII size trailers). But you feel the need to bring your home-away-from-home trailer that's wider and taller than your vehicle, and weighs 3500 lbs and is sagging the back of your vehicle. Even if you can get it through/between the trees, it is going to get damaged (if not stuck blocking the trail), and you won't be happy. And nobody else on the trip will be happy with you.

c. And again - you're told the trails are tight in the PNW, and you're better off in a small to midsized SUV (like a new wrangler or 4-runner or their equivalent trucks) but you know better than the trail leader, and you just know your full-size one-ton crew cab LWB truck on 40's will go anywhere a TJ can go. Show up at the designated day/time and be a little condescending and tell the trail leader 'It'll be fine" (and bonus points for not having a full-size spare). Be sure to hold up the group on the trail as you're trying to keep from sliding your vehicle into trees and such. Be sure to ask me to cut down a tree (or two) with my chainsaw because your behemoth won't fit or go around without body damage. (Oh BTW, the answer is "No").

d. Not having the right radio. We'll just flash headlights or do arm waves and such out the side of our vehicles for you to communicate.

e. Don't have the required tow hooks or recovery points front and back on your vehicle because, as you told me, "I don't plan on getting stuck".

 

[danwyandt]

@SJ.Overland , I'm gonna put this on an Excel spreadsheet so I can be sure not to miss any next trail run in January. :)

 

[armyRN]

#4. Not keeping up with the group.

a. Usually I'm one of the slowest vehicles (4-cylinder TJ towing a trailer), so I figure we're not going too fast. It isn't a race - we want to enjoy the journey and not damage our vehicles in the process. But at the same time, our time is not unlimited. And in a group, we're traveling as a convoy, and as the trail leader i'm trying to keep us moving. We need to make sure you can see the person in front of you and behind you so nobody gets lost. But hey - that's not your thing. You march to your own drummer. You just keep falling further and further back, and your attitude is "I'll catch up with you eventually - they can wait" (because it is all about you). That's how we lose folks, and then can spend hours trying to find them (playing "Marco... Polo" on the radio). And we like nothing better than when we stop at a crossing or something, to have to sit there and wait for you to finally come crawling up.



b. Volunteer to be the tailgunner, but in reality, you just want to do the above (go too slow and fall behind). I need the tailgunner to be my eyes in the back of my head - you can't do that if you're just wanting to fall way behind and can't even see the vehicle in front of you. So volunteer to be the tailgunner, and don't really do the job. Bonus points if you get mad because I want to replace you and get defensive when I "suggest" you keep up with the group.

 

[armyRN]

#5. Deciding we're going too slow.

a. Yes, when going with a group, you're not going to be able to travel as fast as if you were going solo or with just another vehicle or two. So decide you're going to break off and take a couple of other vehicles with you so you can travel faster. You're not taking over the whole group, you're just taking part of the group away from the main group to have your own little group. But it doesn't happen quickly, first you've got to complain to folks for a day or more to get them to decide to split off. While the trip leader wants everyone to have a good time and not feel like they're stuck in a bad situation, the trip leader didn't go to all this work to have you come in and split part of the group off.

b. When we get on pavement for a bit, be sure and "take off" from the rest of the group. Speed ahead. Leave the slower vehicles behind. Bonus points if you can get so far ahead, we've lost radio contact.

 

[smritte]

This is something I can so relate to. I have been trail lead at 4wd events for several decades. Sometimes I question why I do this. I'm so going to agree with what's here with a few modifications.

I will start with this though. YOU as trail lead need to do a few things, so I'm going to start with what you need before you lead. This is very important if your leading groups of people you don't know. I still do this with my friends though.

1. Walk the line. Who is going, do the rigs look in good shape. Are they by themselves or with a couple of other rigs.
2. Driver meeting. Cover what's going to happen, who is tail gunner (This person needs a very good radio), terrain, safety, rules, driving etiquette and who to see if they have issues (large groups need several helpers). Find out who the newbies are and sometimes recruit experienced (looking) people to help.
3. You need to know the route very well. Small group of friends exploring doesn't count.
4. Have two radios or a dual band radio. Trail crew on one and general chit chat on other.
5. Use the radio. Point out things that are interesting, history of the area, light banter.. on the chat freq. I absolutely hate driving for hours and hear nothing.
6. Understand the group. The more you have the slower you go and the longer your breaks are. Have contingencies. The planned route is fifty miles before camp. You have 20 rigs, you made it 15 miles and its lunch break. You better have another spot to camp. Remember, leading 20 plus rigs is like herding cats....with firecrackers.
7. Be patient. If you cant, dont lead.
8. This is actually one of the most important item. If you get lost, don't say anything, just play it off. I've helped other groups as much as I've led. On one of the trips the lead got lost and apologized. Some people got pissed. Not sure why but the gave the lead a bunch of grief. I've missed turns and had to modify the route. Just go with it.

I'm sure there's a few things I've forgotten but you get the point.

Now, how to piss me off as trail leader.

#1. Whining. OMG this is so #1. Yep. This is covered in driver meeting.
#2. Deciding you're in charge. This sooo covered in driver meeting
#3. Not having the required equipment, or the wrong equipment. (or the correct but not working equipment) This is not only covered in the driver meeting but before the meeting this is why you walk the line and look at everything.
#5. Deciding we're going too slow. I don't know if I've ever had this issue. I have had people leave the group so, maybe? I have had real slow people to the point where the tail gunner ended up leading a group of real slow people. I assigned another tail gunner for my group. This is why your "helpers" need to be self sufficient and know the itinerary.

A common thing you see here is how important it is to walk the line and have a driver meeting before hand. My average large group was around 30 vehicles. 40 being not uncommon and largest being almost 100. My multi day to week long trips are limited to 6 but I will allow 10 if its the right group. My record on a 5 day trip was 15? (ish).

Being a trail lead is fun. Being a "Volunteer" trail lead at an event is real fun but, people pay to get into the event. You don't get paid to lead and its alot of work. The people in the group expect a bit of professionalism in the people they "paid" to lead them.

 

[smritte]

Disclaimer: I may have embellished or tweaked some of these examples slightly to make a point or whatever (and not all have necessarily happened to me personally as a trail leader), so if some of these hit close to home and you know me, don't take it personally. I may also come across as snarky in some of my posts.

Ummm.....actually if I hadn't seen this I would not have called BS. Snarky? Uhh, NO. Its called being honest. Most of the things you posted I have either seen or heard of. So, "embellished"? Not much.

 

[grubworm]

thats what i learned from the military...its ALWAYS best to be the smart-ass in the rear...

 

[rgallant]

As the guy in the back every time, good radio - lots of practical experience herding vehicles. Having a group lead who calls the KM's when the group is making a turn and reminding people to wait for the guy behind them makes my life easier. And as the tailgunner repeating what he says when I hear it, for the guys with handhelds at the back helps.

On the bad someone has a breakdown of some sort every single trip because they skip maintenance, and carry almost no tools, can not do simple tasks and expect everyone else to fix thier problem.

 

[OTH Overland]

I have led large groups both in professional settings (SAR/Fire Rescue) and for recreation (off road trips, motorcycle tours) and have run into many of the above and a few others..lol In the Emergency services field there is a chain of command, and you follow it or you are no longer part of the operation. As recreational events are based around having fun, it appears many people do not want to impart a bunch of rules for their trips in advance and then figure out how to deal with (or not deal with) issues when they come up. I have seen several trips go sideways due to lack of organization or control of the event, if you are the unlucky individual running the event you will soon no longer have folks showing up for any of your future events. We are lucky to have @armyRN as a member and living up in the NW, while I have not had a chance to attend one of his trips yet, I have visited with him at a campout and also learned a lot from just reading his Rally Points for trips he puts on where he always posts his "Rules" and expectations in advance. My first read thru his list of rules left me with "this guy must have been a drill sergeant" and how much fun would a trip with him be. Fast forward a few years, and after leading quite a few OB trips myself, his reasoning becomes far more clear and understandable. The huge majority of members attend trips, act responsibly, and contribute to a fun and rewarding event, however every so often there will be someone who likes to see how many of the numbered items above they can check off..lol having your own version of the "Army RN rules" that works for you to have a successful trip posted in advance, may well help to reduce the chance of issue before the trip even begins. If not it can be referred to when and If an issue occurs or someone shows up unprepared. The longer duration or increased difficulty trips defiantly place the group at increased risk if folks show up unprepared or are attempting to cause issues (with intent or not), and as a trip leader if it can not be resolved with a one on one conversation, I think asking someone to remove themselves from the trip may be the correct thing to do. However the remainder of the group does not need to be involved, only advised that this member will not be continuing with us. Most importantly for me is to not be discouraged from leading trips because of these issues, learn from them and remember that the majority of those in attendance are happy you are putting on trips, that they may not be comfortable doing themselves, and that is worth the effort for me. Paul, thank you for what you do for Overland Bound, and hope that schedules align one day soon so I can make one of your trips.

 

[armyRN]

As the guy in the back every time, good radio - lots of practical experience herding vehicles. Having a group lead who calls the KM's when the group is making a turn and reminding people to wait for the guy behind them makes my life easier. And as the tailgunner repeating what he says when I hear it, for the guys with handhelds at the back helps.

On the bad someone has a breakdown of some sort every single trip because they skip maintenance, and carry almost no tools, can not do simple tasks and expect everyone else to fix thier problem.

I totally depend and rely on my tailgunner. I can't see what's going on behind me, so I'm counting on him (or her) to be the eyes in the back of my head. I've had some excellent ones over the years - I got kinda spoiled sometimes. We work together as a team. One less thing for me to worry about when I know I've got a good tailgunner.

 

[OTH Overland]

I totally depend and rely on my tailgunner. I can't see what's going on behind me, so I'm counting on him (or her) to be the eyes in the back of my head. I've had some excellent ones over the years - I got kinda spoiled sometimes. We work together as a team. One less thing for me to worry about when I know I've got a good tailgunner.

In the biker world we use to call them Sweeps because they were left in the back to clean up any mess.. lol No matter what you call them, that position can make or break a good trip. I am also fortunate to have a few great ones that attend my trips.

 

[armyRN]

This is something I can so relate to. I have been trail lead at 4wd events for several decades. Sometimes I question why I do this. I'm so going to agree with what's here with a few modifications.

I will start with this though. YOU as trail lead need to do a few things, so I'm going to start with what you need before you lead. This is very important if your leading groups of people you don't know. I still do this with my friends though.

1. Walk the line. Who is going, do the rigs look in good shape. Are they by themselves or with a couple of other rigs.
2. Driver meeting. Cover what's going to happen, who is tail gunner (This person needs a very good radio), terrain, safety, rules, driving etiquette and who to see if they have issues (large groups need several helpers). Find out who the newbies are and sometimes recruit experienced (looking) people to help.
3. You need to know the route very well. Small group of friends exploring doesn't count.
4. Have two radios or a dual band radio. Trail crew on one and general chit chat on other.
5. Use the radio. Point out things that are interesting, history of the area, light banter.. on the chat freq. I absolutely hate driving for hours and hear nothing.
6. Understand the group. The more you have the slower you go and the longer your breaks are. Have contingencies. The planned route is fifty miles before camp. You have 20 rigs, you made it 15 miles and its lunch break. You better have another spot to camp. Remember, leading 20 plus rigs is like herding cats....with firecrackers.
7. Be patient. If you cant, dont lead.
8. This is actually one of the most important item. If you get lost, don't say anything, just play it off. I've helped other groups as much as I've led. On one of the trips the lead got lost and apologized. Some people got pissed. Not sure why but the gave the lead a bunch of grief. I've missed turns and had to modify the route. Just go with it.

I'm sure there's a few things I've forgotten but you get the point.

Now, how to piss me off as trail leader.

#1. Whining. OMG this is so #1. Yep. This is covered in driver meeting.
#2. Deciding you're in charge. This sooo covered in driver meeting
#3. Not having the required equipment, or the wrong equipment. (or the correct but not working equipment) This is not only covered in the driver meeting but before the meeting this is why you walk the line and look at everything.
#5. Deciding we're going too slow. I don't know if I've ever had this issue. I have had people leave the group so, maybe? I have had real slow people to the point where the tail gunner ended up leading a group of real slow people. I assigned another tail gunner for my group. This is why your "helpers" need to be self sufficient and know the itinerary.

A common thing you see here is how important it is to walk the line and have a driver meeting before hand. My average large group was around 30 vehicles. 40 being not uncommon and largest being almost 100. My multi day to week long trips are limited to 6 but I will allow 10 if its the right group. My record on a 5 day trip was 15? (ish).

Being a trail lead is fun. Being a "Volunteer" trail lead at an event is real fun but, people pay to get into the event. You don't get paid to lead and its alot of work. The people in the group expect a bit of professionalism in the people they "paid" to lead them.

Thank-you for taking the time to put your thoughts into words! Nice to know I'm not the only one. I guess I keep doing it because it is fun, and I get to introduce folks to overlanding, or get to take folks on trips they otherwise wouldn't do on their own.

A lot of this I think boils down to expectation management. I do my best when I post up a Rally Point for a trip, to put as much info up front as possible. Here's an example from my last trip (read posts 1 -12 and you'll get the idea why I might be referred to as a Drill Sergeant).

Link: US Northwest - Idaho BDR (and then some!) | OVERLAND BOUND COMMUNITY

I do this so folks can know what to expect before they sign up (expectation management). And so when we meet-up at the Rally Point on D-Day, I'm not spending an hour going over stuff (cause by that point, folks just want to hit the trail) and I feel like I kinda know some of the participants already from their posts on the Rally Point leading up to the actual date. I do go over the highlights though. But some folks will still whine as the trip progresses. On my text trip, I will be sure to emphasize "No Whining" on the Rally Point where they sign-up.

I ask folks that when they sign up on the Rally Point, to tell us a little about themselves... overlanding experience, their vehicle, etc.

Usually my trips are multi-day trips with a max of 10 vehicles. Which causes some folks to complain we have too many vehicles, but that's for another post.

I agree with all your points; unfortunately I'm not always able to do all of them. Specifically about knowing your route well. I wish I had the time to pre-run all my trips, but work and life (and thank God I have an understanding wife to do what I can do) don't allow that luxury. So I will mention more than once leading up to the departure date that I haven't pre-run the route, I don't know where we'll be spending the night every night even if I had pre-run the route, I don't know how far we'll be traveling every day, and that all this is part of the adventure on this trip... sign up at your own risk. Of course I've done a lot of research on the route prior to posting the trip on OB as a Rally Point. And having GPS routes downloaded (I use GIA) is a game changer. It'll show potential camp sites, fuel stops, points of interest, etc. And even with GPS on both a phone and tablet at my side with the route to follow, I think I've yet to have a day where I didn't miss at least one turn.

I do have a drivers' meeting on day one, and every morning after that before we head out. It helps set the tone.

Sometimes I'm not the only one who's tired and cranky at the end of the day, and it shows. That's my failure.

As an aside, if it is a long multi-day trip, I try to find out who might be interested in getting practice on being tailgunner, or being the trail leader (I don't have an ego problem thinking I always have to be up front). My usual requirement is you have to be a tailgunner for a day or so (after watching a good tailgunner in practice for a day or so) before coming up front and leading the group (with me as the back-up of course). Sometimes I'll let someone have a day or two as tailgunner, then we'll switch and I'll be tailgunner and they can be up front. This way they learn how to depend on their tailgunner because they've been there, and they've paid attention to what the trail leader is doing up front. It just mixes it up, and makes it more fun for some folks who want to do more than just follow.

 

[armyRN]

Commercial break...

The next trip I'm planning is to do the Oregon Back Country Discovery Route (ORBDR). It is a new one coming out from the BDR folks on 4 Feb 2023.

Link: Oregon Backcountry Discovery Route (ORBDR) - Backcountry Discovery Routes (ridebdr.com)

This one is going to be for little flat fender Jeeps initially (I'll be working with a Flat Fender Jeep Facebook page group [Flatfendering Aficionado Monthly] to route them to the OB page to sign-up). My initial inquiries showed enough interest from them to have enough folks to make it worthwhile. And I've been wanting to do a flat fender overlanding trip for a long time. I'm thinking June next year. May or may not take the trailer on this one.



I may or may not get to pre-run the ORBDR route (I do live in SW WA so I'm not that far from the CA/OR border where it will start). If I do pre-run it (probably with my TJ), it'll be close to the actual trip start date. I won't know till 4 Feb how long the route is, if it is suitable for lil' flat fenders, where it starts or where it ends, etc. But I'll have an idea come 4 Feb so I can start looking into it and posting dates up as an OB Rally Point so folks can start signing up for it. I'll have to give it my best educated guess (after researching it) as to how long it will take to run.

I will be linking this thread to the Rally Point page when I post-up this ORBDR trip (maybe there's a method to my madness here).

So this may be another trip where I haven't been able to pre-run it, so I'll be telling folks to show up with an open mind and an expectation of an adventure, have the route downloaded on your electrical device, and buy the paper map too.

If you want to be led by the hand and have a meal waiting for you at the end of the day, sign up for a Jeep Jamboree trip (which I've both attended and been crew on - they're not cheap but they're fun). They're day trips though - not multi-day overlanding trips.

Come this January I'll be attending the 2023 California Winter Fun Festival. I attended in 2019 (pre-Covid) and had a great time.



Link: Winter Fun Festival - California Four Wheel Drive Association (cal4wheel.com)

It'll be two day trips. I'll be led by the hand and will have a meal waiting for me at the end of the day. Nothing wrong with that. I'll get to hang with other four-wheelers, get to play in the snow, be fed at the end of the day, and have a B&B waiting for me at night.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program....

 

[bcmedicxj]

I spent ten days on the TAT with ArmyRN last year and had a great trip. His posted rules for joining the trip were well thought out and made the trip much smoother by making the expectations clear on the front end. The upside was, if you did not like the rules you just did not sign up thus fewer problem children.

 

[Anak]

A group I wheel with (these guys have been a group for over 50 years now) have a slightly different tack on this:

[As amended]

A. A typical run shall consist of the Trail Boss, Those Following the Trail Boss, and the Trail Butt.

...

[As amended]

A. The Trail Boss shall be responsible for the initial planning of the run, including but not limited to determining the routes to and from the run, places to stop for gas, ice, food, alcohol, ice cream and toilet paper while on the run, getting lost while on the trail, ensuring adequate potty stops and being blamed for unforeseen weather conditions. The Trail Boss shall also be assigned all verbal abuse from those following the Trail Boss, including but not limited to having his (or her) parentage status challenged, his (or her) sexual proclivities questioned, his (or her) fondness for barnyard animals suggested, his (or her) relative intelligence denigrated and his (or her) cognitive abilities questioned. The Trail Boss shall also alert Those Following the Trail Boss and the Trail Butt of incoming or outgoing traffic, divots / ruts / challenging road conditions and cattle guards as necessary. The Trail Boss shall have the exclusive authority at appointing the Trail Butt. Monetary gifts, other gratuities and outright bribery of the Trail Boss for the position of Trail Butt is encouraged.

B. Those Following the Trail Boss shall be responsible for all verbal abuse directed at the Trail Boss and continued whining for the duration of the run. Those Following the Trail Boss shall also ensure that those who have not made it on the run will be talked about.

C. The Trail Butt shall be responsible for alerting the Trail Boss and Those Following the Trail Boss of any mishap along the trail, any mechanical breakdown of Those Following the Trail Boss, unscheduled potty stops made by Those Following the Trail Boss and making choo-choo train noises when necessary.

And yes, when the right character is the trail butt you can count on choo-choo train noises.

 

[SJ.Overland]

@SJ.Overland , I'm gonna put this on an Excel spreadsheet so I can be sure not to miss any next trail run in January. :)

Sounds like it'll be a good test of my patience

 

[MidOH]

Agree with all, except #2. If you schedule your roll out at 7:55, then roll out at 7:55. Screw the guy who overslept.

If I'm stopping early for the night, I'm stopping early for the night. You can carry on if you'd like. I'll catch up tomorrow, or I won't.

Unless it's some kind of weirdo hardcore trail, where we have to stick together or die. But then we agree to that, beforehand. My overlanding ain't usually like that. People come and go, as they please. They got the coordinates for the next campground.