4runner payload paradox

[Mikeblack]

I believe i came to the right place for this question. I've seen a lot of rigs all over the place, some simple and small , While others are very extravagant and large on a 4Runner.

My question to you everyone here on this form is oh, how do you manage your payload with all of the skid plates and tent setup with the bumpers included.

I have seen people with entire setups that enclose them with the 270 degree awni and a tent on the roof that has a drop awning on it. I did a rough scenario build my 4Runner and I am just at the maximum of the payload. Thinking about it is there a way to increase the payload capacity of your 4Runner? Is that not only requiring buying a aftermarket suspension system but replacing axle and Springs. I've seen online with a offer a 700 lb coil for the front axle. I was wondering if the need to change out tires that are more robust and work on the rear portion would increase the capacity to caring more.

I'm using Voice Text so forgive my choppy speech

 

[WrightRunner]

Tires are already E rated so they are fine. Yes you do need to purchase Overland springs front and back if you are totally kitted out.

 

[Mikeblack]

Tires are already E rated so they are fine. Yes you do need to purchase Overland springs front and back if you are totally kitted out.

So you haven't noticed any wear and tear that could be construed as excessive on the chassis and control arms because of the weight. I was looking at doing a full enclosure setup plus putting full armor on the undercarriage and if time and money permit a auxiliary fuel tank to get the most range out of a single trip

 

[WrightRunner]

Got 45,000 mi on my tires. I have a full icon stage 7 suspension. I'm. We are very heavy but all seems to be good. Love my 5th gen.

 

[Mikeblack]

Got 45,000 mi on my tires. I have a full icon stage 7 suspension. I'm. We are very heavy but all seems to be good. Love my 5th gen.

I saw that icon made a stage 8 recently. What qualities of the suspension they make that you like, mostly I've seen from Ocean material for them and one video of it being installed but to hear people's actual experience and testing it is always great

I acquired a Excel spreadsheet to calculate payload with everythingI would want to add too it.
Do you notice its hard to get through trails that are more difficult with a heavy rig?

Also what tires are you running on your rig and any good advice for a newbie trying to get my feet wet but not fall deep into a hole as they would say.

 

[smritte]

Don't go too far past the max GVW. Once you do you start having to look to brake's, trans cooling and bearings. Fortunately, Toyota slightly overkill's these areas. As it is, once I start clocking "off-road" travel, all my items go into what I call half life. Basically inspecting and replacing things at twice the norm. Pushing the GVW and driving mountain roads really causes havoc on brakes.
Most people who mod a vehicle for off-road, only look at upgrading suspension and tires. Start adding in heavy bumpers, winch, swing out spare with an 85lb tire and rim, RTT, Storage boxs.......... the dynamics change fast.

If you don't plan on keeping the vehicle long, run it and make sure you inspect things carefully. Long term your going to mod other things as well.

Getting the front to rear weight as balanced as possible will increase your on and off road handling. My 6000lb Cruiser is now actually about 49/51 for the weight. Try not to get it rear heavy like most vehicle builds turn out.

I've seen online with a offer a 700 lb coil for the front axle. I was wondering if the need to change out tires that are more robust and work on the rear portion would increase the capacity to caring more.

Put simply, The springs support weight and control height. The shocks control the speed of the suspension travel by converting the motion into heat.
Lets say you have a 4000lb vehicle and each corner has the same weight. That's 2k front, 2k rear, 1k each side.
A 700lb spring means it takes 700lb to compress it 1 inch. This spring would compress about 1.5 inchs with the vehicle sitting on it.
That will be a real stiff spring. I like 3-4 inch compression with the weight just sitting on it. For that I would choose 250lb - 350lb.
When you buy suspension, it's critical to know certain things. Corner weight is one.
Now comes the issue.
Most shops sell you whatever they have, most manufactures will only have 2-3 choices. Either is a crap shoot on it being correct. For your springs I would calculate your weight (having it weighed front and rear is better) and contact a manufacture for what fits your weight (sometimes you can see spring specs on their site) or a vendor who has been doing YOUR vehicle type/build. Specifically in your case Toyota.

That was just springs, shocks are a whole different ball game.

 

[Mikeblack]

Thank you very much for your information and I really appreciate it. From my time here looking at the forms and what some people are running direct i'm thinking about going with the icon suspension system. They also offer a heavy spring and luckily I found a spreadsheet Excel that gives a rough idea of what to expect. What are sliding so as I add or subtract the overall payload weight will change. Being that I have 1550 to play with in terms of payload it's going to be pretty tight. Also I'm trying to avoid spacers which can be a hassle to weight balance the vehicle with and it changed the Dynamics of the suspension and the ride height that doesn't always be conducive to a nice ride.

I will attach a photo and was wondering if I'm in the ballpark on it.

 

[LostWoods]

I think you're realizing what frustrates a lot of us... all that gear looks damn good on YouTube and Instagram but it's a massive amount of weight. The more you get into this hobby as someone who actually cares about weight, the more you realize just how over some of these rigs are. There are Tacomas out there that are running around at twice their rated payload like it's nothing.

IMO your list is the dream list. I have one too, but it's largely unnecessary stuff. What is important is basic protection (skids and sliders) and tires. The rest can be done in iterations as you determine the need. It's good to keep the end game in mind, but you're going to be sorely disappointed if you want all the frills while trying to stay under GVWR. It just can't be done.

You can't practically increase payload even if it can be done legally... nobody who does re-certifications will take on a one-off passenger vehicle and they're normally only doing medium/heavy trucks in common special configurations. Just hit a CAT scale occasionally and get your F/R weights... make sure you aren't crossing your GAWR specs even if you are hitting GVWR.

 

[Mikeblack]

I think you're realizing what frustrates a lot of us... all that gear looks damn good on YouTube and Instagram but it's a massive amount of weight. The more you get into this hobby as someone who actually cares about weight, the more you realize just how over some of these rigs are. There are Tacomas out there that are running around at twice their rated payload like it's nothing.

IMO your list is the dream list. I have one too, but it's largely unnecessary stuff. What is important is basic protection (skids and sliders) and tires. The rest can be done in iterations as you determine the need. It's good to keep the end game in mind, but you're going to be sorely disappointed if you want all the frills while trying to stay under GVWR. It just can't be done.

You can't practically increase payload even if it can be done legally... nobody who does re-certifications will take on a one-off passenger vehicle and they're normally only doing medium/heavy trucks in common special configurations. Just hit a CAT scale occasionally and get your F/R weights... make sure you aren't crossing your GAWR specs even if you are hitting GVWR.

Yes you are correct it is kind of a dreamless. The Excel sheet gives me an idea of what the wait will be and also how it will affect performance especially going on trails that made more difficult. So in sight of this, i'm looking at doing teardown of what is necessary for that trip in trying to be modular in a sense. Addition of a trailer might be a nice solution since it could be left behind and I am not putting undue weight on the chassis itself but by moving it to a trailer and finding equilibrium. Of all things it will be the skid plates and protection for the most part that will be my number one concern. All of the tents in night accessories don't if you 4Runner commit seppuku by gutting out a transfer case on a rock, all humor included on that one.

I think of a good trailers in setups that allow you to have the camping experience and to be able to detach and go about the trail and enjoy yourself. I only wish that for the 6th generation 4Runner that they are planning for 2023 they bump up the rookie numbers on the payload capacity since they understand people want to Overland and it's a growing segment.

I really appreciate this forum because I've gotten more answers out of the small engagement than most other forums. I'm guessing the classic setup of a sleeping bag is back and play again. I know that adding the weight will also decreased range that's why I consider a auxiliary tank to extend it out for longer trips. Nothing wrong with having a nice sleeping System stuck in a bag so you can really go out and enjoy the nature and stars at night.

 

[LostWoods]

Well I'd say the 4Runner's payload is anything but rookie. I mean it's within spitting distance of the Tundra, 40% better than the Tacoma, and is on par with the best of the mid-size segment Ranger and Gladiator. The largest reason I bought my Gladiator was my Tacoma wasn't up to handle the weight and the Jeep aftermarket is so massive there are light weight options. A 4Runner and JLU were the other two I looked at and I just don't want to give up the truck.

IMO if you want to go that crazy, you have to pick a trade off - size or towing. Either go up to an F150 or Super Duty size pickup or you can get a trailer and deal with that. IMO a trailer has substantial perks you pointed out but it's a greater burden on trail. Then again, you can still get a small trailer places you can't get a Dodge 2500.

As someone who has done the RTT thing, they're overrated aside from the quick-up hard shell (Alu-Cab and Baroud type). You can get a badass ground tent for half the price and 1/5 the weight as a cheap RTT and, as you said, setting a basecamp with a ground tent or trailer means no issues if you want to go hiking or run into town for supplies or breweries.

 

[Mikeblack]

Has someone saying you have to be flexible and curtail your rig for what you're expecting to come at on the trail. I like the winter time event so staying warm is a must for me and also staying off the ground of all things in winter. I don't get paid for it anymore from the US Army so I'm not going to indulge it in my civilian life if I don't have to.

I thought about the dodge full size truck but they are pretty expensive. Also that extra thousand lb it brings to the table can make it more difficult on certain trails that can be highly technical. I don't have the benefit of using a army Humvee on Uncle Sam's dime and banging it up. From what I've been reading you seem like uses a bag or tent method as well. What is your preferred setup or do you use the cargo space in your rig to sleep in?

 

[Charles M]

The advice given above is right on the money the closer you can get to actual loaded weight the better it will be for the suspension. For the best ride you will need it set up for your rig. Off the shelf stuff will be a crap shoot at best.

I have a Tahoe when I set up my suspension I weighed each wheel (I have two industrial scales) and sat down with a guy at King suspension and figured out the exact springs I would need so my springs and shocks were set up for my rig under a full load. Mine weighs in right at 7k full tank fully loaded, supplies gear and people. It rides great on the highway and off road it is plush compared to other rigs I have ridden in.

Keep in mind you can set up suspension to work with the extra weight but, if you ever get pulled over by a DOT officer or inspected at a boarder crossing it can be a problem if you are over weight unless your vehicle has been re-certified. I was fined $400.00 for being over weight it was a moving violation so, it cost points on my license and my insurance went up too.. I have heard if you are involved in a traffic accident and they can relate your lack of handling or stopping to being over weight your insurance may not cover you too...

On the trail of course lighter is always better... Anytime I am modifying or adding something to my rig I try to go lighter if possible.

 

[LostWoods]

Has someone saying you have to be flexible and curtail your rig for what you're expecting to come at on the trail. I like the winter time event so staying warm is a must for me and also staying off the ground of all things in winter. I don't get paid for it anymore from the US Army so I'm not going to indulge it in my civilian life if I don't have to.

I thought about the dodge full size truck but they are pretty expensive. Also that extra thousand lb it brings to the table can make it more difficult on certain trails that can be highly technical. I don't have the benefit of using a army Humvee on Uncle Sam's dime and banging it up. From what I've been reading you seem like uses a bag or tent method as well. What is your preferred setup or do you use the cargo space in your rig to sleep in?

Winter (like, actual winter and not oh my it's cold out I better grab my hoodie CA/AZ winters) camping is one of the things an RTT is good at. I didn't get to do it a lot but I've spent many a night on the ground in the 20's and even lower and it freaking sucked until I got an insulation-rated mattress. My setup is now a 6-person REI tent and an Exped with a 2-person bag because my wife likes demands cuddling. When it's actually cold out, we'll throw a down blanket over top. Total weight without any regard for it while shopping is about 40lbs and half of that was in our RTT in the first place. Total saved is about 220lbs which means I can do a cap this time for security and still save 50lbs.

But that cap also means I can now drop my heavy Pelican cases (because I needed weatherproof and secure) for my much lighter Hardigg cases at half the weight. That's 20 lbs saved and no more 10lb security chain plus I get better organization. And that's really the point I'd like to make... choices have consequences and sometimes, you can alleviate issues with DIY effort or money and some decisions open up others.

So let's play the weight game... if the rack and RTT are high on your list, where can you save? A rack is wasted with the tent so why not just do crossbars? Do you really need an awning or would a few poles and a tarp tied to the truck suffice? Do you really need a fridge slide or can you hard mount it? Do you need back seats or can you replace them with a platform that will save you a few lbs while increasing usable storage (I'd suggest this to sleep if you were solo)? You have 200lbs for gas and a tank, why not jerry cans that will be 50lbs per ~5.3 gallons carried. Do you need steel skids or will aluminum work? Same question for bumpers?

These are the questions you need to ask. Build a true dream sheet and don't be shy about weight. Include everything (e.g. that 47lb fridge doesn't include proper mounting or the wiring you'll need), prioritize, and see where you can cut. Once you've cut, decide what's really important and build a realistic target list.

 

[Mikeblack]

Winter (like, actual winter and not oh my it's cold out I better grab my hoodie CA/AZ winters) camping is one of the things an RTT is good at. I didn't get to do it a lot but I've spent many a night on the ground in the 20's and even lower and it freaking sucked until I got an insulation-rated mattress. My setup is now a 6-person REI tent and an Exped with a 2-person bag because my wife likes demands cuddling. When it's actually cold out, we'll throw a down blanket over top. Total weight without any regard for it while shopping is about 40lbs and half of that was in our RTT in the first place. Total saved is about 220lbs which means I can do a cap this time for security and still save 50lbs.

But that cap also means I can now drop my heavy Pelican cases (because I needed weatherproof and secure) for my much lighter Hardigg cases at half the weight. That's 20 lbs saved and no more 10lb security chain plus I get better organization. And that's really the point I'd like to make... choices have consequences and sometimes, you can alleviate issues with DIY effort or money and some decisions open up others.

So let's play the weight game... if the rack and RTT are high on your list, where can you save? A rack is wasted with the tent so why not just do crossbars? Do you really need an awning or would a few poles and a tarp tied to the truck suffice? Do you really need a fridge slide or can you hard mount it? Do you need back seats or can you replace them with a platform that will save you a few lbs while increasing usable storage (I'd suggest this to sleep if you were solo)? You have 200lbs for gas and a tank, why not jerry cans that will be 50lbs per ~5.3 gallons carried. Do you need steel skids or will aluminum work? Same question for bumpers?

These are the questions you need to ask. Build a true dream sheet and don't be shy about weight. Include everything (e.g. that 47lb fridge doesn't include proper mounting or the wiring you'll need), prioritize, and see where you can cut. Once you've cut, decide what's really important and build a realistic target list.

A nice touch in the beginning for the amenities for the wifey. The list was a download so some of the stuff it's still but I chose ball aluminum I left a few things on their this see how much I can stretch it out but it was more of the concept and idea I wrote earlier that my top priority is protection so that would be the skids in bumper. Other than that most of us has been stripped down. That's why I inquired about your little setup and you gave me a nice idea to with the REI tent. Have they say this form that were on is greater information and real-world experience from people like yourself to let me know where do you evaluate the practicality of certain gear and what I want to achieve. Some folks would be defensive and want some witty retort but I'm open-minded and I know where my limitations beginning some areas and how to improve on them by listening to those that have been out there and done that.

This is a hobby that is truly like Alice in Wonderland, down the rabbit hole we all go

 

[LostWoods]

That's the best you can do... start with objectives and determine what you need to do to your rig to get there. Some sacrifices can be made but it's not always the case. Either way, you'll never know until you have a complete list in front of you and have genuine numbers.

And as I said before, experience is the best teacher... if you rip off a bumper then, well, the trails just told you that your rig needs a better bumper. If you keep getting stuck in sand or snow, maybe it's time to invest in some maxtrax...

 

[Mikeblack]

That's the best you can do... start with objectives and determine what you need to do to your rig to get there. Some sacrifices can be made but it's not always the case. Either way, you'll never know until you have a complete list in front of you and have genuine numbers.

And as I said before, experience is the best teacher... if you rip off a bumper then, well, the trails just told you that your rig needs a better bumper. If you keep getting stuck in sand or snow, maybe it's time to invest in some maxtrax...

No worries there I am definitely working on it. Just Gathering experience from those that been doing it wave longer than me and some longer than I've been alive. The information I get from here really helps out in the end goal of achieving a quality rig that is balanced capable you can go to distance. Something to list can be added later on down the line if it's necessary. Also the 4Runner does drink like a seller when it comes to fuel

Since the Excel sheet gives me a nice Target idea I'll definitely use it and relatable things as I go along from using aluminum or Steel in certain places, to using different type of iterations to get the most out of my setup. The more information everyone here can share and especially you the more the merrier

 

[smritte]

I will attach a photo and was wondering if I'm in the ballpark on it.

Nice spread sheet. You want to be scared? Add in a column with cost. I refuse to do that.

If you have specific manufactures in mind and you got the weight from them, I would say "not bad". If you were guessing then let me add in my guess's.

Frt Bumper: 100-200 depending on manufacture. The Aluminum ones are about 75. Some of the bumpers I've seen are way too heavy and comprised of 3/8 steel for some reason. I've built a few lighter bumpers for Cruisers and those are about 100 + winch.

Skid's: You have 174 for skids. Im thinking 50 lb max. On my TJ I had two separate skids of 1/4 plate that gave me coverage from oil pan to back of transfer case. Im guessing those were about 150lb. Do these only if the terrain calls for it. Otherwise just upgrade what you have with aluminum.

Sliders: 70. The ones on my Cruiser are that each side and I didn't get the real heavy ones. If your going to use them as steps and not protection then go as light as possible.

Tires: 30 (ea). Depending on tire/ rim combo and size I would guess your stock ones are slightly more then that. My TJ with 37 mud grapplers on heavy aluminum rims were almost 100 each, my cruiser with 35's and light tires and rims are about 70 each.

Rear Bumper 110: about that + swing out, tire/rim, small rack and fuel/water cans.

The question is, how hard core do you want to go and where? Also the RTT discussion runs like discussing politics. I've been using mine for 7 years. They work.
Three points everyone will agree on are regarding RTT's , make your vehicle slightly top heavy, drop mileage due to drag and noisy if its real windy. I've been in 50 mph winds in mine, held up well, didn't sleep. Would have been the same in a ground tent. My areas are windy about 50% of the time. For that reason only is why I'm moving away from it.

Take your vehicle as it is, grab a ground tent and go out. Add in the mods as you go. If your going out in snow solo, prioritize winch, traction boards and bumpers. If you buy your suspension based on a few mods and add in more weight later, springs are fairly cheap. As long as you don't change height, you don't need to change shocks/struts. I went through 3 sets of springs getting my TJ dialed in and 2 sets on my Cruiser because I added in more weight then I thought.

 

[Mikeblack]

Nice spread sheet. You want to be scared? Add in a column with cost. I refuse to do that.

If you have specific manufactures in mind and you got the weight from them, I would say "not bad". If you were guessing then let me add in my guess's.

Frt Bumper: 100-200 depending on manufacture. The Aluminum ones are about 75. Some of the bumpers I've seen are way too heavy and comprised of 3/8 steel for some reason. I've built a few lighter bumpers for Cruisers and those are about 100 + winch.

Skid's: You have 174 for skids. Im thinking 50 lb max. On my TJ I had two separate skids of 1/4 plate that gave me coverage from oil pan to back of transfer case. Im guessing those were about 150lb. Do these only if the terrain calls for it. Otherwise just upgrade what you have with aluminum.

Sliders: 70. The ones on my Cruiser are that each side and I didn't get the real heavy ones. If your going to use them as steps and not protection then go as light as possible.

Tires: 30 (ea). Depending on tire/ rim combo and size I would guess your stock ones are slightly more then that. My TJ with 37 mud grapplers on heavy aluminum rims were almost 100 each, my cruiser with 35's and light tires and rims are about 70 each.

Rear Bumper 110: about that + swing out, tire/rim, small rack and fuel/water cans.

The question is, how hard core do you want to go and where? Also the RTT discussion runs like discussing politics. I've been using mine for 7 years. They work.
Three points everyone will agree on are regarding RTT's , make your vehicle slightly top heavy, drop mileage due to drag and noisy if its real windy. I've been in 50 mph winds in mine, held up well, didn't sleep. Would have been the same in a ground tent. My areas are windy about 50% of the time. For that reason only is why I'm moving away from it.

Take your vehicle as it is, grab a ground tent and go out. Add in the mods as you go. If your going out in snow solo, prioritize winch, traction boards and bumpers. If you buy your suspension based on a few mods and add in more weight later, springs are fairly cheap. As long as you don't change height, you don't need to change shocks/struts. I went through 3 sets of springs getting my TJ dialed in and 2 sets on my Cruiser because I added in more weight then I thought.

thank you very much for the input. It's always good to hear from other experience overlanders. The spreadsheet was a rough but due to the capacity of the 4Runner payload it will be all aluminum. The only things that would be still would be the rear diff but that also interferes with the knss system. The suspension system I was looking at was icon. This way I can build it up in stages. What's awesome looking at using 33s if I go with that manufacturer suspension route. The spreadsheet was borrowed from a website. It is a nice template and gives me an idea to modify it later on.

I was looking at dropping the roof rack and going with a quality sleeping bag and tent system to lighten up the lid and allow me to be more mobile. Nothing annoys me more than having a noisy vehicle on a long drive. Unfortunately I don't get paid for anymore like the army so that's out the window. I haven't even factored in the cost of electronics. Batteries, Communications, lighting and cameras. I'm just taking it one step at a time but also listen to all of the Wise Guys and people like yourself that have been down this road before. This is a very expensive hobby but like anything worth having you got to work hard for it but most importantly of a as one older gentleman told me be smart about it

 

[smritte]

The suspension system I was looking at was icon.

I have never run ICON but, in my opinion, that is the top manufacture for our trucks. I have a 2019 Tacoma, when I start modding that one, it will be ICON. Look at OZ tents for ground tents. A little long packed up, so It gets transported on your rack. I know a few people who own them. I was torn between those and my RTT.

 

[Mikeblack]

I have never run ICON but, in my opinion, that is the top manufacture for our trucks. I have a 2019 Tacoma, when I start modding that one, it will be ICON. Look at OZ tents for ground tents. A little long packed up, so It gets transported on your rack. I know a few people who own them. I was torn between those and my RTT.

also not mentioned on my list cuz you recommend a company that does a good installation of sound deadening material so I can keep this puppy quiet