In the Public's eye

[MOAK]

Better do away with religion first, it was the first "corporation" to create the idea that humanity is above nature, rather than the reality that we are a part of it.

Not a popular outlook, however that is a major problem that I also have with western religions..

 

[J.W.]

You mentioned "bike week" are you old enough to remember what "bike week" used to mean to John Q Public? In my opening post I discussed that very thing. The Harley crowd has worked diligently to weed out the bad actors over the past 40 years or so

Yes, I’m definitely old enough haha. But clearly you don’t remember that they just moved the party down the road and kept causing mayhem. Then the retailers of Daytona realized all the money they were losing and they acquiesced to having the bikers around. Even today there is nothing respectable about bike week. It’s still a crazy party. Daytona just figured out how to deal with all the people.

Now lets actually follow this example to it’s conclusion. Even you recognize that not all bikers are hoodlums. John Q Public sees this beach Jeep party the same way. Not everyone with a 4X4 at the Topless Day/Weekend thing was causing a problem. Local law enforcement will adjust. My point is that there is no need to try and draw conclusions about the wider off-road community when no one else seems to be doing that.

If Anderson Cooper and Sean Hannity start railing against the evils of Warn Winches and 36” tires then we can revisit this topic, and I’ll shake my cane with you. Until then, just be thankful that social media wasn’t around when we were younger.

 

[alexdnick]

Better do away with religion first, it was the first "corporation" to create the idea that humanity is above nature, rather than the reality that we are a part of it.

Lmfao pretty sure most religions(Christianity and Buddhism and their other branches at least) see us and animals as the same, all created by whatever the worshipped. Highly doubt it’s religions fault, but instead maybe the fact that we didn’t know about ruining the planet until the last 100-150 years, but yes, blame religion as most people do when they want an easy way out of actually talking about something. This comment is as dumb as the original posters complaint.

 

[Dilldog]

Lmfao pretty sure most religions(Christianity and Buddhism and their other branches at least) see us and animals as the same, all created by whatever the worshipped. Highly doubt it’s religions fault, but instead maybe the fact that we didn’t know about ruining the planet until the last 100-150 years, but yes, blame religion as most people do when they want an easy way out of actually talking about something. This comment is as dumb as the original posters complaint.

Actually the only religion that actually calls us out as animals is Satanism (as codified by Anton LeVay), which teaches we are just another beast (but often times worst kind) and as such should not feel guilty for acting as we see fit.
Now to the issue, perhaps I painted with too broad a brush (I will admit it is often times easy for me to overstep as an atheist and a naturalist when speaking of religion). But it is a FACT that Jews, Christians and Muslims have ingrained dogma supported by scripture that humanity is above nature. In Genesis God gives us dominion over nature. This has, admittedly, been taken to an extreme and in my opinion is a reason for unchecked extraction of natural resources and a general lack of effective stewardship across the world. I will admit that I believe the intent of that passage was to push stewardship, and not abuse of the natural world. But like most things, when a group gets too big to effectively police itself, extremism and a general lack of adherence raises its ugly head. As these three are the dominant faiths in our world today, this is what I intended to speak to (but I do have a general lack of regard for religion in general).
To the point of not knowing about how to be stewards, I would encourage you to do some reading on how Native Americans managed the land, herds and fish. It is truly amazing. As far back as 8,000 years there is evidence of effective and prolonged stewardship of salmon runs in the Spokane and Columbia rivers. The native tribes were very sensitive to the fact that they not only needed to let enough salmon through their nets to benefit tribes down stream, but also to ensure a returning bounty. This intuitive conservation is echoed throughout other tribes, in different areas of North America, and also in other aboriginal populations throughout the world. The ancients knew far more than we want to think, about far more subjects than even we realize today. This was done though because they saw themselves as part of nature, not above or below it. They also often times viewed nature as sacred and a thing to be revered and worshiped. I will admit that this is one place where I readily admit my own hypocrisy as I have great respect for the ancient polytheistic pagan religious systems, even though I will quite often speak to the ills and miss direction of religion as a whole.
Finally it is obvious I have hit a sensitive issue with you and I apologize for that, but I do not apologize for my comment, and it is not an easy out. Being pragmatic and outspoken about this is anything but easy, I regularly face scorn and a lack of understanding (as has been illustrated by your above comment). But it is my firm belief that the unchecked spread of religious ideas in the face of science, and the fact that religion commonly tries to deny science and provable fact is a result of willing ignorance, and such things need to be called out for what they are. Religious dogma as a world view can be effective, but often times blinds people and leads them to ignorance. This is why I left the fold of my Christian upbringing. This in turn lead to a massive crisis of my own identity, as until that point in my mid twenties I identified as a Christian. This is a struggle I am continuing. So no it is not easy to blame religion, as in doing so I am blaming myself (or at least my past self) for what I see as unjust in the world.
Also to add, check out Joseph Campbell for the some reading on religion etc. I will credit him as being one of the writers and lecturers that has most influenced my current world view, the other being Greg Graffin (yes the Greg Graffin of Bad Religion) who also penned a few great books on having a naturalist world view.

 

[MOAK]

So wtf is the point of this post if none of the people at these events are “us” lol. You really just worried about what some people every once in awhile think when they drive past you? Sheesh

Sorry you don’t get it.. let me make it as simple as I can.. many folks in very powerful positions would like nothing better than to close down all motorized access to public lands... ( that is not debatable that is a fact ) when douche bags with 4x4 vehicles act like douche bags on public lands it gives a lot more ammunition to the people that want to close down motorized public access. When I’m out with anyone else, as I am informed about Leave No Trace ethics, the responsibility is on me to make sure everyone does good... when a sanctioned event goes awry, as this event did, where were the leaders? Why didn’t they step up, and how in the hell did it get out of control? They didn’t police themselves. Period. They didn’t take care of their responsibility.. if we, as a group remain silent, those that would seek to end our hobby, would characterize us as being complicate in douche baggery behavior on public lands. I’m done attempting to explain this.. when you become my age and all the public lands are closed down to motorized traffic it will be because no one spoke up. No one called out bad behavior. Peace out,, Do Good, Be good

 

[Dilldog]

Sorry you don’t get it.. let me make it as simple as I can.. many folks in very powerful positions would like nothing better than to close down all motorized access to public lands... ( that is not debatable that is a fact ) when douche bags with 4x4 vehicles act like douche bags on public lands it gives a lot more ammunition to the people that want to close down motorized public access. When I’m out with anyone else, as I am informed about Leave No Trace ethics, the responsibility is on me to make sure everyone does good... when a sanctioned event goes awry, as this event did, where were the leaders? Why didn’t they step up, and how in the hell did it get out of control? They didn’t police themselves. Period. They didn’t take care of their responsibility.. if we, as a group remain silent, those that would seek to end our hobby, would characterize us as being complicate in douche baggery behavior on public lands. I’m done attempting to explain this.. when you become my age and all the public lands are closed down to motorized traffic it will be because no one spoke up. No one called out bad behavior. Peace out,, Do Good, Be good

I will say I dont agree with all of what you say on here, but in this we are 100% on the same page. Really what it comes down to is the responsible need to work to become more visible and more vocal than the ignorant. This is one of the biggest reasons I like linking my environmental work with overlanding. It shows that there are responsible stewards out there, not only enjoying 4x4s and the environment, but working to protect it and proving the two can exist in harmony.

 

[grubworm]

Sorry you don’t get it.. let me make it as simple as I can.. many folks in very powerful positions would like nothing better than to close down all motorized access to public lands... ( that is not debatable that is a fact ) when douche bags with 4x4 vehicles act like douche bags on public lands it gives a lot more ammunition to the people that want to close down motorized public access. When I’m out with anyone else, as I am informed about Leave No Trace ethics, the responsibility is on me to make sure everyone does good... when a sanctioned event goes awry, as this event did, where were the leaders? Why didn’t they step up, and how in the hell did it get out of control? They didn’t police themselves. Period. They didn’t take care of their responsibility.. if we, as a group remain silent, those that would seek to end our hobby, would characterize us as being complicate in douche baggery behavior on public lands. I’m done attempting to explain this.. when you become my age and all the public lands are closed down to motorized traffic it will be because no one spoke up. No one called out bad behavior. Peace out,, Do Good, Be good

Now that is the most logical post yet. Approaching something like this from an emotional point of view and calling names and holding an entire group responsible for the actions of a few doesn't win the hearts and minds of those we wish to reach. Logic and facts. Yes, the bottom line is that we, as a collective group of relatively like-minded people, should stand up and be a voice against actions such as the beach incident, and any other actions that under mind the basic principals of being good stewards of our public lands. Judging from the posts today, I would say we ALL are very passionate about this and we all have very strong convictions. Hopefully this can be conveyed to other people in a sensible and logical way so that we get them to feel the way we do and they will want to change. Maybe instead of ripping into each other on here, we could organize and have multiple members write to the organizers of the topless jeep event and let them know that we do not appreciate the way it was done and the FACT that there were so many complaints and arrests testifies as to just how poorly it was done. Then offer some solutions to the problems. A knee-jerk reaction of cancelling the event makes no sense...that only conditions people to think that anytime there is a problem, just do away with everything. Instead, do the event properly. Logic and facts will always win out over emotions.

 

[jplemons]

Actually the only religion that actually calls us out as animals is Satanism (as codified by Anton LeVay), which teaches we are just another beast (but often times worst kind) and as such should not feel guilty for acting as we see fit.
Now to the issue, perhaps I painted with too broad a brush (I will admit it is often times easy for me to overstep as an atheist and a naturalist when speaking of religion). But it is a FACT that Jews, Christians and Muslims have ingrained dogma supported by scripture that humanity is above nature. In Genesis God gives us dominion over nature. This has, admittedly, been taken to an extreme and in my opinion is a reason for unchecked extraction of natural resources and a general lack of effective stewardship across the world. I will admit that I believe the intent of that passage was to push stewardship, and not abuse of the natural world. But like most things, when a group gets too big to effectively police itself, extremism and a general lack of adherence raises its ugly head. As these three are the dominant faiths in our world today, this is what I intended to speak to (but I do have a general lack of regard for religion in general).
To the point of not knowing about how to be stewards, I would encourage you to do some reading on how Native Americans managed the land, herds and fish. It is truly amazing. As far back as 8,000 years there is evidence of effective and prolonged stewardship of salmon runs in the Spokane and Columbia rivers. The native tribes were very sensitive to the fact that they not only needed to let enough salmon through their nets to benefit tribes down stream, but also to ensure a returning bounty. This intuitive conservation is echoed throughout other tribes, in different areas of North America, and also in other aboriginal populations throughout the world. The ancients knew far more than we want to think, about far more subjects than even we realize today. This was done though because they saw themselves as part of nature, not above or below it. They also often times viewed nature as sacred and a thing to be revered and worshiped. I will admit that this is one place where I readily admit my own hypocrisy as I have great respect for the ancient polytheistic pagan religious systems, even though I will quite often speak to the ills and miss direction of religion as a whole.
Finally it is obvious I have hit a sensitive issue with you and I apologize for that, but I do not apologize for my comment, and it is not an easy out. Being pragmatic and outspoken about this is anything but easy, I regularly face scorn and a lack of understanding (as has been illustrated by your above comment). But it is my firm belief that the unchecked spread of religious ideas in the face of science, and the fact that religion commonly tries to deny science and provable fact is a result of willing ignorance, and such things need to be called out for what they are. Religious dogma as a world view can be effective, but often times blinds people and leads them to ignorance. This is why I left the fold of my Christian upbringing. This in turn lead to a massive crisis of my own identity, as until that point in my mid twenties I identified as a Christian. This is a struggle I am continuing. So no it is not easy to blame religion, as in doing so I am blaming myself (or at least my past self) for what I see as unjust in the world.
Also to add, check out Joseph Campbell for the some reading on religion etc. I will credit him as being one of the writers and lecturers that has most influenced my current world view, the other being Greg Graffin (yes the Greg Graffin of Bad Religion) who also penned a few great books on having a naturalist world view.

Wow.

 

[Anak]

... Realize that this is no different than Daytona Bike Week or Spring Break at PCB. Let the local municipality worry about the kids. Banning the event will just make them pick another spot to do stupid things.

This sounds like the same crowd that makes up the bulk of the annual Over The Line tournament in San Diego.

I think these things give more of a black eye to alcohol than to anything else. And if that message isn't coming through then that is the fault of the media and that is who you really need to go after.

 

[Aaron Niemi]

My mother used to say for every finger you point, there are 10 pointing back at you.

It's all about personal responsibility, not the vehicle you drive.

Organizations should foster and promote good behavior and encourage stewardship it's that simple.

A douchebag can drive any vehicle and I'm sure we've all been one to someone, at some point.

Some people need role models, encouragement, guidance, not just judgment.

My 2 cents.

 

[Viking1204]

This may have been a Jeep organized event but I'd be willing to bet a lot of trouble was caused by those not driving Jeeps and just the general "thug" members that crashed Jeep's party. Annually there is a Jeep even held in Panama City Beach and they never have these kind of problems. I attend it myself annually since it's nice to see all the cool Jeeps that come to town from all over the SE. Jeep might think about relocating this event and keep it more Jeep centric.

 

[Michael]

What happened in Texas a couple weekends ago was not only tragic for those seriously injured, but tragic for our community, aka, Overlanders. In the Public Eye, anyone driving a lifted off road rig is no better than the ash-ole's at that jeep event. Why-O-Why does this never happen at a Toyota event? There are currently more than 10,000 signatures that have signed a petition to shut the event down. In all honesty, I'd be signing that petition as well. It is unfortunate that Jeep people haven't found a way to police their own. Way back when the Harley Davidson folks had this very same problem, a few bad apples gave the entire motorcycle crowd a very bad name. Over the past 40 years or so, they have managed to change their overall image. If we take 40 years or so to change the "overall image" of off pavement rigs, we'll loose all access to back country. All that will be left is pay for play parks. John Q Public will bury us, so to speak. John Q Public doesn't understand the very major difference between Overlanders, that enjoy traveling to remote places to connect and help to preserve the natural environment, and the low life ash-ole's that just don't give a damn about anything except their own hedonistic pleasure. Just how are we supposed to delineate ourselves from them? I understand this is a very hot topic, and that I have posed a rhetorical question. However, it must be discussed and you jeep people need to find a way to start policing your own.

Here's a start, If any OB members were at that event, and didn't leave it immediately, when things began to turn south, they should be held accountable within this organization...

I only read OP that kicked off the thread and a couple others.

Someone who behaves irresponsibly, disrespectfully, or in a manner that is less than admirable is what we affectionately refer to as an ass-hat. That's it. It has nothing to do with what they drive. It does a lot of damage to look at someone who drives a lifted rig, or a Jeep, and make a snap judgment about who they are, or what their values are. I despise hate, and generalization about a whole class of people i.e. "Jeepers" breeds hate and goes against our founding principles. It doesn't matter what you drive.

An ass-hat is an ass-hat plain and simple. There is no excuse for it, and anyone should be called out for it.

 

[9Mike2]

I dislike the labels people put on things, All the picks there were many other vehicles on that beach. The only thing that was in common was the age and alcohol. And I say the latter was the main problem. It's these days saying you hunt or fish, people then equate you to being like a mass school shooter. That's not right, what happen had about as much to do with the problem as what I said before. Not JEEP PEOPLE, I saw as many Toyotas as Jeeps in the film....Please restrain from labeling things like that..Topless days refer to taking the roof off your Jeep and supporting Breast Cancer cure, at lease here in Cali...

 

[MOAK]

OK Mike and Micheal, I agree 100% with what each of you have stated. I don't care for labels, and it truly doesn't matter to me what anyone drives. It was a "jeep" sanctioned event. I didn't give the event that label. I'd bet my next SS check that if an OB rally ever blew up like that, ( which just wouldn't happen cause I believe everyone on board with OB is just way too cool ) that there would be consequences, just as there is with any other club. At the very least club spokespeople would get out in front of it and apologize for allowing the event to get out of control, then proceed to eject the offenders from said club. Even if it were the Vintage Schwinn Beachcruiser Club, then the VSBC would have to own it. I certainly did not intend to offend any jeep folks. Thanks,, peace out..

 

[THorner]

OK, Gentlemen, I've been silent long enough. I have been researching this event and the situation in Bolivar "Crystal Beach" Texas. I have called the Bolivar Chamber of Commerce and discussed the beach weekend at length with a very nice lady. That conversation yielded some interesting facts, first, this was not an event sanctioned or promoted by any particular group. The Bolivar community does not require any type of license or registration for a group to use the beach. The beach is public access and therefore cannot be restricted. The beach is one of a few in Texas where you are allowed to drive on the beach. To access the beach all that is required is a $10 beach access pass for any motorized vehicle. Therefore let me correct those of you that say this was a Jeep sanctioned event. It was not. I would say that Jeep (FCA) doesn't have the time or manpower to scrutinize every time someone uses the Jeep name in association with a club or event. During my conversation with the lady at the chamber she made it very clear to me that it wasn't the "Jeep people" that were causing the problems. There were a couple of high school proms that weekend as well as a MAGA rally and a diesel truck get together. The Chamber calendar is open access and therefore anyone can post an event on it. She mentioned two Jeep clubs that may have been there and my research on them has yielded information that they have at least one member who made it to ABC13 news in Houston TX denouncing the activities during the beach event and that he would not return. That clip is not currently available on the channel's website and when called they couldn't find it. I found it on a facebook post of someone's video of their television, I'll provide the link to anyone interested. The other Jeep club has a "Trail Etiquette PSA" that in my opinion is excellent. I would post it here but it is 1,302 words long and I think that's a bit much. It does say in part "3. Tread Lightly. Stay on marked trails, don’t drive over vegetation, cross streams only at designated fording points where the trail crosses the stream, drive over (NOT AROUND) obstacles to avoid widening the trail, and respect all signage and barriers. 4. Leave No Trace. Pack it in, pack it out. Better yet, carry a trash bag and pack out more than you pack in. Stop to pick up that plastic water bottle you see on the side of the trail. and 13. Don't Drink and Drive. Save drinking for the campfire. Drinking alcohol is extremely dangerous while wheeling, endangering not only you but also everyone else on the trail. RESPECT FOR OTHERS While these things are fairly common sense, keep them in mind whenever venturing out to go wheeling. Everyone has more fun when everyone in the community looks out for one another." Additionally the lady at the Chamber indicated that a couple of "Jeep Clubs" participate in the adopt a beach program and that it is the Jeep people that stay on Monday to clean up the mess. As far as the diesel truck group goes I found their website and their tag line is "Faith-Family- Friends Fueled by Diesel" and their "Mission Statement: To provide community support and provide charitable contributions to local charities." None of these groups appear to me to be the type that would be drunk and disorderly, fight and trash the beach.

Concerning the event Jeep Go Topless. I've done some research on that too. It turns out that this all originated as an event by the company All Things Jeep back in May of 2008. All Things Jeep is apparently now a part of Extreme Terrain. Extreme Terrain sells Toyota and Jeep parts and accessories. If you go back to post number 9 I included a link to the Extreme Terrain website where they recount that Jeep Go Topless had 240 events in 45 states and 11 countries that raised $150,000 for local charities in 2019. I sent a detailed e-mail to Extreme Terrain explaining my position and offering my assistance to prevent negative publicity in the future. I have also contacted via voicemail Jeep FCA and asked that they return my call with their position on Go Topless. I have yet to hear from either Extreme or Jeep. I will update when/if I hear from them.

In conclusion yes the Jeep name was associated with the event. It was not a "Jeep Sanctioned" event. Many in the Jeep community are just as upset as we are. Maybe with some effort we can prevent a repeat, I'll put it on my calendar to follow-up with the Bolivar Chamber of Commerce next year. I refer back to my original post 9 and say that I'm saddened that we choose to sensationalize the negative while ignoring the positive in our society.

I for one am proud to be a member of OB. I fully agree with the core principals of this organization. I have enjoyed reading and contributing to the other posts in this community forum. May we please put this one to bed now.

 

[Anak]

Thank you for actually looking into this and providing good information.

 

[Edy Coyote]

Human beings are basically awful. When they get in groups, especially around people like them they are even worse. Monkey gang bullshit. Sad reality but its true.